Court proofing guns
This is a discussion on Court proofing guns within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I read an article in the latest issue of American Handgunner written by Massad Ayoob in which he was talking about "court proofing" certain types ...
September 17th, 2009 08:21 PM
Court proofing guns
I read an article in the latest issue of American Handgunner written by Massad Ayoob in which he was talking about "court proofing" certain types of handguns. He went into detail about a particular 1911 and on into the subject of Glocks. He runs a 5lb trigger connector with a NY-1 trigger module.
Related article: The real story Glock trigger pull weights: Glock critics say its trigger pull is too light. It may be that they've been weighing it wrong | Guns Magazine | Find Articles at BNET
Reading through this forum I notice that some prefer a 3.5lb trigger bar, some with or without the NY-1 module.
I understand Ayoob's point about court proofing your carry gun, but my question for the forum is this, what in particular would be the difference in trigger feel between the 3.5lb and 5lb connector bar working together with the NY-1 trigger module?
I would like to have a bit firmer take up in the trigger pull on my G23, and I think that the NY-1 would provide that, but in the interest of NOT having a super light trigger pull would the 5lb connector be the way to go? Also, would either set up provide a more crisp and positive trigger reset? Thanks in advance, let me know what you all think.
September 17th, 2009 08:29 PM
My opinion is to leave the inner workings alone. Maybe a polish job, or something to improve the stock parts, but leave the stock parts in there. I know this isn't a direct answer to your question, and I'm sure somebody will chime in to answer your question much better.
September 17th, 2009 09:10 PM
In Tx as long as you are authorised to use deadly force,they don't care if it took 8 pounds of trigger pull or 3.5 pounds of trigger pull
"Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
--Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .
September 17th, 2009 09:29 PM
The 3.5-pound connector and NY-1 trigger return module produce what many, including me, prefer to the mushy and "sproin-n-n-n-g-g-g-g-y" stock set-up. It does nothing to increase or reduce the maximum pull weight. My PD employer allows us to use this set-up in our personally-owned duty Glocks.
My ultimate solution, however, after a couple of years, was to go with a SIG P229 with a DAK trigger, which, by the way, is a bit heavier that a Glock trigger, but suits me fine.
Just to be clear, I am able to shoot a DA/SA well enough, and know my way around 1911 pistols very well, so I am not seeking a crutch in place of training. (I used 1911s for duty and CC for 6 or 7 years, and DA/SA P220 for the same purposes for two years.) Being an old sixgunner, the DAK trigger makes me feel right at home. The 3.5# connector and NY-1 were an attempt to do this with Glocks, which would have been more successful had Glocks fit my hands better.
September 17th, 2009 10:24 PM
Glock pistols other than the competition models come from the factory with stock 5# connector, and approximately 6# trigger spring. Stock set up for the approximate 5-6lb pull. (By the way...I've read the article you referenced quite some time ago). Glock makes a - (read minus) connector or 3.5#, and a + (read plus) connector or 8#. These alone make quite a difference in the over all trigger pull weights without even going on to the trigger spring itself. Stock trigger springs from Glock come in the standard, NY1, and NY2...5-6lb, 8lb, 12lbs respectively. Where the connector affects the pull most on a Glock pistol is when you take up all of the slack and engage the sear (point of reset). After the sear is engaged is when you tell the real difference with that final break and what it takes. The 3.5# connector with the stock spring only makes a difference in the final 1/4" of pull, or from the sear engagement to firing the shot. The complete trigger travel seems to remain near the same as a stock Glock with the 5.5# connector until sear engagement in my experience. When I got my G23 used, it had an 8lb connector in it with stock 5.5lb spring, and it took the extra effort from sear engagement to firing the shot...the start of the trigger pull seemed to be just the same as a stock Glock with 5lb connector and 5-6lb spring. I have installed the 3.5# connectors AND NY1 trigger springs in both me and my wife's USPSA match pistols and this combo provides the smoothest, most consistent over all trigger pull you could probably ask for from a Glock. From beginning to end, the pull doesn't seem to vary and probably ranks about 6lb pull. But if you ride the reset like I do, that last 1/4" pull is still actually feeling like the 3.5#.
The NY1 and NY2 trigger springs are not recommended with a + (or 8# connector)....you may break something without firing a shot?
All I can honestly say is it was rather difficult for me to overcome the notion that modifying the Glocks trigger combination would net any gains nor pose any safety risks. But I did after hearing other folks comments on these changes. I shot my August match with the 3.5# connector installed in my G17 with stock trigger spring and had good results. Two weeks ago, my wife and I put about 350 rounds downrange with the 3.5#/NY1 combos in our G17 and G19, and this is the way we are going to our October match. One of these days she's gonna beat me at my own game. But until then, both of us are learning with the Glock triggers in competition. Thing is, we both started out very well with the stock Glock configuration, and I've been shooting mine for some ten plus years this way and learned the stock Glock set up like it was natural. Now I'm thinking a 3.5#/NY1 trigger combo would be the right thing for my EDC G23, and my wife may end up wanting the same for her upcoming G26. For an average of around $20, you can buy the 3.5# connector and the NY1 trigger spring, then try it yourself and see what it's all about. I know I would normally send anything extra I had to share in the way of Glock pistol parts, but I don't have any extras of any of these parts, and if I did, they would probably be going in my Glocks.
topgunsupply.com has the NY1 for $2.95ea right now. Tom's a good guy to deal with. The 3.5# connectors can be found elsewhere, and I'm guessing that some don't offer these as OEM items for liability concerns. Like I've said before, EBay seems to have plenty of them now, but they are going fast just like a lot of other things (life included). Scherer makes the 3.5# connectors as well, and they may be a bit cheaper. Personally, I'll pay the extra couple bucks to stick with OEM.
Further more, I don't think there is any such thing as "court proofing" any modern gun any more than you would want to pull a trigger with your tongue. It's just not realistic. Could you make your defensive pistol more or less of a target from a foaming at the mouth, rabid, bloodthirsty, 'hang 'em high' prosecuting attorney? Absolutely.
September 17th, 2009 10:31 PM
Originally Posted by Rexster
That's why my SIG 220 DAK SAS is my EDC. Although, I will carry a wheel-gun from time-to-time (for old-time sake) and do carry a S&W M&P Compact .40 when deeper cover is desired. Note that they all have the same long trigger pull w/o needing to vary muscle memory re: safeties, de-cocking, etc. -- albeit the S&W 65 / .357 indexes a tad high, now that I've shot the SIG 220 a good deal more lately.
I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.
I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.
Veni, Vidi, Velcro
September 17th, 2009 10:45 PM
Ayoob is incorrect when it comes to this..
a shoot is either good or not, whether i kill the BG with a rock, stick, sword, gun or 20mm the kill was either justified or not, the weapon used makes zero difference.
the point of the NY trigger is to help stupid proof a gun that cops were to inept to use with out shooting them selves or others.
if you feel you fall in that category, then dont carry a gun, get a pointy stick
September 17th, 2009 10:46 PM
I to am concerned about this as well you just never know in life,I mean yes your more likely to be crucified in Massachusetts than Florida for a light trigger pull on an altered gun. But why take the chance in a state that has no castle doctrine or stand your ground law,why give them something else to use against you?
I've also read that in MOST jurisdictions after a SD shooting the gun is confiscated as evidence and its gone over by the crime lab,and they do check EVERYTHING on that gun including the gun's trigger pull as compared to that same make/model of gun in its unaltered factory state. This is one reason why my carry gun is a S&W 340 M&P DAO centennial J-frame.
Snub nose revolvers,the original concealed carry guns.
September 17th, 2009 10:56 PM
find 1 court case that the outcome of a good shoot was deamd bad do to trigger pull..
Originally Posted by 1911luver
September 17th, 2009 11:11 PM
Originally Posted by Ring
I remain convinced that a good shoot is JUST that......Frankly I gotta believe that an awful lot of the drivel spewed by these so called 'experts' is trying to generate enough copy to please their editors.
A good shoot IS a good shoot!
I'd add that in way over thirty years as a LEO I CANNOT ever recall the instance of ADs involving officers shooting themselves or partners at ANYWHERE near the level noted since Glockitis became the rage...........
Now, I'll wait for the grenades and flamethrowers, but that statement is an utter fact!.........AND I CAN CITE CASE AFTER CASE!................Good guns, shoot well, but lacking ANY safety they have and will continue to present an ongoing hazard!
September 17th, 2009 11:24 PM
I like the 3.5 pound connector and the competition trigger spring for my Glocks. The 3.5 pound connector by itself produces an actual trigger-pull force of about 4 pounds on my G21 and G27. The addition of the competition trigger spring further lowers the measured pull to about 3.5 pounds.
September 18th, 2009 02:09 AM
The thing is, the trigger pull won't be so much of a factor in a criminal trial, unless you are charged with negligent homicide, but it most definately will be a factor in a civil trial.
Originally Posted by Ring
As far as finding a court case, you will not find a court case where things are dependant upon just the trigger pull alone, but it can and has been a factor in a few. Prosecutors have a "theory of the case" that they have to sell to a jury. If you believe that your trigger pull will not be a factor, more power to you. Some of us have seen the shenanigans pulled by lawyers and want to avoid that as much as possible, hence the NY1 Trigger Module.
I can tell you that the NY1 and the 3.5# Connector is a Glock approved combination for defensive use. The 3.5# Connector and the standard trigger spring is approved for "Competition Only" by Glock. If you think you can argue in court that you know more about the gun than Gaston Glock himself, more power to you. I won't take that bet, except to bet that you will lose.
I don't speak for Mas, as he can defend himself just fine, but I do know that he has credentials and expirience to back up his name. What do you have? One thing to keep in mind, Mas is writing for people in all fifty states. What would get you patted on the back for in Po'Dunk would get you charged in a less permissive environment.
September 18th, 2009 02:22 AM
I do not modify the stock trigger on ANY weapon I carry. I just practice with the gun until I can shoot it well the way it came out of the box. That's about as court proof as I think I need to be.
No slimy lawyer can accuse me of being blood thirsty because I altered the firing mechanism on my gun from the standard, stock trigger that the factory built it with.
Just my opinion though.
I also read the article by Ayoob and I hold his opinions in high regard.
September 18th, 2009 08:41 AM
I agree. His statements re ammunition and gun mods have been taken to heart by many instructors. I guess he needs something to write regarding such stuff to make him seem greater than he is.
Originally Posted by Ring
I would like him to be an expert witness if I ever needed one, but that does not say that he is correct in this particular area. I uses the ammo that I think is best for my gun, and do any mods that make me shoot better with a particular gun.
September 18th, 2009 09:21 AM
This makes no sense to me. You'd trust Mr. Ayoob's opinion and expertise enough to rely on his testimony as an expert witness to keep you out of jail or keep from losing everything you have in a civil case. And in the same post you say his judgment and expertise regarding ammo and gun modifications are not to be taken seriously?
Originally Posted by JerryM
(n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.Blame it on Sixto
- now that
is a viable plan.
Learning to shoot again : Starting Over
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