Hypothetical question regarding CCDW "Sudden Need"

This is a discussion on Hypothetical question regarding CCDW "Sudden Need" within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Okay, so I've seen a lot of folks discussing from time to time the differences/advantages/cons of carrying in various states of "Deep Carry". We've heard ...

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Thread: Hypothetical question regarding CCDW "Sudden Need"

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    Senior Member Array EvilMonk's Avatar
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    Question Hypothetical question regarding CCDW "Sudden Need"

    Okay, so I've seen a lot of folks discussing from time to time the differences/advantages/cons of carrying in various states of "Deep Carry".

    We've heard everything covered from the Off Body Carry (fanny packs, purses, etc.) to the Tucked IWB, to the Smart Carry option.

    My question is this:

    Most BGs are after something tangible like money, right? An easy scenario to imagine is the obligatory dark alley and someone springing out with a knife/gun/weapon and demanding your cash, cards, or whatever with the alternative being a trip to the Emergency Room. So doesn't a Deep Carry choice give you the advantage?

    BG demands money, you reach into the fanny pack seemingly in compliance and produce your weapon (in KY, this situation would allow you to defend yourself with lethal force as you "feel threatened"). Alternately, you explain nervously that you keep your cash in your drawers (for just this reason) and again, produce your gun from the Smart Carry. The purse is even more an excuse to get the gun if you don't assume the BG will demand the whole thing off the bat (pardon the pun).

    I guess I am also assuming that the BG is not some psychotic rapist who only wants to fulfill his sick version of their more base carnal desires.

    Does anyone know of any statistics that would demonstrate what MOST Citizen-Utilized Lethal Force Situations are a result of (mugging, attempted rape, robbery, etc.)?

    Maybe with such information, we might discover what the odds are, and therefore make better use of such options as are in the category of Deep Carry.

    I only ask in the spirit of "Always have a plan..."
    That which does not kill us leaves us broken and bleeding...

    Don’t mess with the guy who can barely stand up. His remaining options for self-defense don't include your survival.

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    Senior Member Array EvilMonk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by titleist View Post
    You think this might get "interesting"?
    That which does not kill us leaves us broken and bleeding...

    Don’t mess with the guy who can barely stand up. His remaining options for self-defense don't include your survival.

    Convenire Volui Spectatus

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    Many BG's are experienced and not really stupid...add in a drug induced high and you have the makings for needing a box of bandaids if you start reaching for a gun in your shorts.

    If you're going to react, it better be from the 'get go'...quick and violent, anything else and your asking for some serious problems.


    titleist, would you hand me some of that popcorn please?

    Thanks,

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    cmb
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    Stats...

    If someone would give me some statistics I will make them say what I want to hear!

    Some data would be nice, it would need to be very comprehensive to help us. Would it change our carry method? May just confirm what we know... avoid dark alleys!

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    By the time they are demanding your wallet, they are in striking distance. No matter how fast your draw is from your smart carry or fanny pack, they have the drop on you whether it is with their own firearm, knife or fists. Producing a firearm to an unarmed or blade-armed mugger 3-8 feet away from you is an invitation for him to take it away and shoot you.

    If you've got a few years of real practical martial arts study in something practical like ju-jitsu then you can make this play; as really you are almost using the gun as a distraction so you can put a submission hold on him if you aren't able to present it before he is on top of you.

    Once mugger has closed to this distance I'm just giving up the wallet. Obviously if he presents a threat beyond that then you have no choice but to draw and fight it out with him.

    My question is: what about pocket carry in the back pocket? There are a number of holsters that have a flap that makes the print look like a wallet print. In this case, he won't see the weapon until its in a hip-fire position which is fine for that range.

    Risk of back-pocket carry though is a pick-pocket of epic proportions, so probably not worth that risk.

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    Distinguished Member Array MinistrMalic's Avatar
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    The reason that I study martial arts is simple:

    Use your body to fight your way to your sidearm.

    Use your sidearm to fight your way to your rifle. (if necessary)

    If you can get a mental advantage and make him wait for you to draw then great. Otherwise use your hands, feet, elbows, knees and teeth to give you the second you need to draw your firearm.

    I have timed my tuckable IWB draw time with my heart rate up and it's about 1 second with both hands (weak side pulls the shirt, strong side draws) and about 1 1/2 second with one hand. That is a LONG time, so it demands that I have dealt with the immediate threat in another way before drawing.

    Lesson: never assume that having a firearm on your person will automatically keep you safe from an attack. It is your situational awareness and overall ability to defend yourself that will keep you safe.
    "...whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one." (Luke 22:36)
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    Interesting. I'm a noob and don't know nothing, but I rejected smartcarry because it looks like it's just too long to draw and requires both hands.

    If you're getting mugged from close range with a firearm, the question becomes "is he going to blow me away afterward anyway?". If you think yes, he's going to kill me. I think the correct answer is to work fast and add to the confusion and stress.

    My plan is to put up my left hand in the "i give up" while rotating my strong side away and reaching for my "wallet" all the while begging for mercy, stating I'll comply, ommagod ommagod ommagod. If close enough I'll strike his right hand with my left while drawing and moving right or left depending on if my wife's with me to move in front of her and get off the X while shooting. Hopefully this will all happen within two seconds of getting the gun pulled on me. A cop friend of mine proved to me that if you're within hand contact range, you can push a gun pointed right at you away way faster than he can pull the trigger. That said, if I was a mugger, I wouldn't get within hand to hand range but, hopefully they haven't thought that through.

    Yes, I know things will be different if it ever happens in real life and I don't really have a plan if I get attacked by a lefty but, you react much better if you think these things through ahead of time.

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    Ex Member Array Karter's Avatar
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    Why on earth would you step in front of your wife? You are drawing the fire, you want the fire AWAY from her.

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    Distinguished Member Array nutz4utwo's Avatar
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    I am not interested in playing games with BG's.

    The faster you can react to the threat of violence, the better. Fine motor skills also tent to degrade in high stress.

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    Member Array 45XDCCW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilMonk View Post
    You think this might get "interesting"?
    No, he thinks you just opened a can of worms which people will rant and argue on for days and this thread wont end, bad, not interesting...

    Ill bring cheesy popcorn.... Wait I think I may just walk out of this theatre and into the next show
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    Fine motor skills also tent to degrade in high stress.
    Are there any stats on this ?
    The reason I ask is that its exactly opposite with me.
    Many times in my life when something stressful has happened, say a dog I didnt see one time that was about 4 feet away lunging at me within a blink....Ive reacted so fast and with such precision that I almost felt like it wasnt me actually doing anything...kind of like watching the action thru someone elses eyes.
    This dog had been behind a trash bag on my porch eating or something. By the time I saw him it was apparent that I started him and he immediately lunged....it was like a second tops. I managed to get a glove on my hand somehow and punch the dog in the face three times or so before my brain was even catching up to what my hands were doing.

    Its happened so many times over the years, and in so many different conditions...near accidents, a few different dog attacks, etc, that Im certain at this point that its not coincidence. Whatever it is it has saved me from numerous accidents....including one on I-71 in Columbus Ohio one time where a car with a trailer went out of control at 65 mph or so and I was dead behind him with nowhere to go. Or so I thought. It was all a blur.

    One time I had a guy take a punch at my face and before I knew it I had grabbed his arm blocked a leg and hit him in the mouth so hard that a tooth broke. This isnt anything Ive ever practiced or even really thought about. It just happened without any thought whatsoever.
    Another time a guy took a swing and (I cant even remember how this one happened it was so fast) I managed to catch his arm in mid air, take it around his back and then forcibly push him over some palates that were sitting on the floor. Afterward I stood there completely perplexed.

    I think it must vary with the person or something.
    Im not a entirely incapable of movement or anything, but I certainly do not normally have that sort of ability in every day life (believe me, Ive tried to consciously reproduce it and nearly hurt myself doing so).

    Im not going to dismiss the idea entirely as I know my mother freezes up under any amount of stress. By her sister, my aunt, is exactly like I am.
    Ive seen her react to things so quickly that Ive just sat there in awe that a human being could have so little time to even see something going on, let alone take some sort of action.

    Ive read about the whole 'adrenaline rush' thing and maybe thats a possibility.
    :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycler View Post
    My plan is to put up my left hand in the "i give up" while rotating my strong side away and reaching for my "wallet" all the while begging for mercy, stating I'll comply, ommagod ommagod ommagod. If close enough I'll strike his right hand with my left while drawing and moving right or left depending on if my wife's with me to move in front of her and get off the X while shooting. Hopefully this will all happen within two seconds of getting the gun pulled on me. A cop friend of mine proved to me that if you're within hand contact range, you can push a gun pointed right at you away way faster than he can pull the trigger. That said, if I was a mugger, I wouldn't get within hand to hand range but, hopefully they haven't thought that through.

    Yes, I know things will be different if it ever happens in real life and I don't really have a plan if I get attacked by a lefty but, you react much better if you think these things through ahead of time.
    Ive pondered the old 'faking a seizure' routine to take him off guard....while Im down draw my gun and then demand HIS money

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    Member Array gumaro's Avatar
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    Here is something to consider, get a used wallet stuff some of those fake credit cards you get in the mail, a couple of business cards, useless pictures, and about $20 in one dollar bills. Then if your ever in a situation of being robbed hand them the fake wallet and BG will either leave and all you are out is $20 bucks. This also might cause the distraction and give you enough time to draw your weapon. I carry a fake wallet.

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    Member Array Cycler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karter View Post
    Why on earth would you step in front of your wife? You are drawing the fire, you want the fire AWAY from her.
    My initial thought was to use her as a human shield but..

    I guess now that I think about it...i think moving to my left is the way to go either way as it would push the gun or knife farther away....I'll need to think about it some more and do some drills. I'll get back with you.

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