Some hot head gets the point... I think
This is a discussion on Some hot head gets the point... I think within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; It's hard to Monday morning quarterback it. The only thing I would add is that maybe you should have aborted shopping at that particular store ...
October 5th, 2009 12:55 AM
It's hard to Monday morning quarterback it. The only thing I would add is that maybe you should have aborted shopping at that particular store once you realized that he was parking in that lot. Better to never have a confrontation.
October 5th, 2009 01:21 AM
You are 100% correct.
Originally Posted by Pro2A
However, this doesn't negate the wisdom of using an "apology" tactic to defuse the situation. If apologizing for something that really wasn't my fault will derail a potentially messy confrontation, I'll do it. I would not want to rely on "he was unjustly being a hot-head" as my defense in court. Particularly with witnesses who may or may not agree with me when they make statements to the police or take the stand.
"The flock sleep peaceably in their pasture at night because Sheepdogs stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
October 5th, 2009 01:38 AM
The "big picture" of the answers you are getting: you done fine, son. Chill out, quit second guessing, and leave it be.
Next time something similar happens it might be worth it to head to another store nearby to avoid hot head, or maybe the apology needs to come as you wave to him with that "sorry, man, didn't do it on purpose" look. At close quarters in the checkout line, though, I think you were spot on.
As of Sept 30th in AZ you would have been fine in showing the firearm. (I am not familiar with PA so YMMV) A guy that big presents a disparity in force that justifies the weapon, as does the demeanor and him escalating the conflict.
October 5th, 2009 02:06 AM
I think you handled it well. The problem we face in situations like this is tyring to de-escalate while not making ourselves more vulnerable to attack.
Your experience is a good example of how situations escalate into violence, and would make a great civilian continuum of force (cof) role-playing exercise in a self-defense class.
I like your verbal response. It served multiple purposes--let the perp know you didn't want trouble, and your tone indicated confidence. It also alerted others that the perp was the aggressor and you were trying to avoid conflict.
Here are some things to think about as you mentally rehearse similar situations:
1. By turning to face the perp, you make yourself more vulnerable to a straight on attack.
2. By showing in any way that you are armed, you could have legal exposure. The perp may also decide to try to grab your gun. Of course, you have to balance this with the deterrent affect it has. There is no "right call" here--you just need to understand the trade-offs.
3. Having more cof options is helpful. One good tactic is to keep your strong side back and raise your front hand in a "oath-swearing" position while you confidently and clearly say "I don't want any trouble." This keeps you in a more balanced position and gives you quick soft-hands/hard-hands options.
4. Having OC gives you even more cof options. If you had OC, you'd want it available to your strong side hand since you'll be using your forward hand for soft/hard hands options.
With this said, it's a crapshoot and there is no right answer. Just scenarios to think about.
In the end, I think you handled it very well.
A traffic ticket is formal recognition of a lapse in situational awareness.
October 5th, 2009 02:18 AM
Good job on the encounter being captured on security cameras in checkout! An added bonus in case of trouble...
October 5th, 2009 02:24 AM
I like his comment back to you to save face. "Alright tough guy... Just watch yourself". I'm presuming nobody really saw what he did, so it all looked innocent as he walked away. LOL
"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand
NRA Member / Ohio Conceal Carry Instructor
October 5th, 2009 02:30 AM
That which does not kill us leaves us broken and bleeding...
Donít mess with the guy who can barely stand up. His remaining options for self-defense don't include your survival.
Convenire Volui Spectatus
October 5th, 2009 02:46 AM
Originally Posted by 21bubba
October 5th, 2009 08:44 AM
I see no problem with the way you acted, reacted etc. and like others, glad that the outcome wasn't violent.
The real problem is the attitude of the guy who tapped you on the shoulder. He could have "walked away" same as you. He could have "let it go" same as you. The way I see it, HE had the problem, not you. He chose to escalate and potentially place himself into a deadly situation. This could have culminated in a shooting in the parking lot with him on the losing end. I like to remember that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. You did what anyone here or elsewhere would have done.
Glad you are safe, and didn't have to use the firearm, even though you would have been totally justified in it's use if the jerk wanted to physically assault you with the intent of deadly force. It might make him think a bit more now that he sees some armed folks there who appear to be willing to use their equipment.
Last edited by JoJoGunn; October 5th, 2009 at 09:10 AM.
Reason: remove word
"A Smith & Wesson always beats 4 aces!"
The Man Prayer. "Im a man, I can change, if I have to.....I guess!" ~ Red Green
October 5th, 2009 08:57 AM
It sounds to me like you handled it great. Obviously this guy had more problems than you "cutting him off" he was just looking for someone to take it out on.
October 5th, 2009 09:12 AM
PAFOA is the Pennsylvania Firearms Owners Association. I added a link to the logo in the OP. My jacket had that logo on it.
Originally Posted by mpitcock
In this instance I think witnesses would have been on my side. In PA I would have been ok. In this instance I wasn't going to leave my back exposed to him, I was clearly printing and I turned around. Not much else I could do.
Originally Posted by BurkC
Thanks to everyone else for the responses
October 5th, 2009 09:32 AM
You did good.This guy was nothing more than a bully looking for trouble and sooner or later he will find it.These type of people should never be issued a gun permit or a drivers license.
October 5th, 2009 10:08 AM
I didn't read any of the responses as I'm kind of pressed for time.
But here's the bottom line. He didn't touch you. You didn't have to hurt him. You never revealed your gun. He backed down and left.
Without getting into microscopic examination of all your actions, I'd say you had a pretty successful conflict resolution!
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
October 5th, 2009 10:41 AM
Sounds like you did the right thing. As mentioned in this thread, you can never know if this guy has a bladed weapon. He had the gaul to confront you in the store, so who's to say he would'nt have jumped you in the parking lot. Once he saw what he was up againt he at least had on good thought in that pea brain head of his.
October 5th, 2009 01:26 PM
There ya go!!!
Originally Posted by 21bubba
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