Some hot head gets the point... I think - Page 3

Some hot head gets the point... I think

This is a discussion on Some hot head gets the point... I think within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; It's hard to Monday morning quarterback it. The only thing I would add is that maybe you should have aborted shopping at that particular store ...

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Thread: Some hot head gets the point... I think

  1. #31
    Member Array Filbert's Avatar
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    Feb 2009
    It's hard to Monday morning quarterback it. The only thing I would add is that maybe you should have aborted shopping at that particular store once you realized that he was parking in that lot. Better to never have a confrontation.

  2. #32
    Distinguished Member Array jumpwing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pro2A View Post
    Regardless of whos fault it would have been, he had no right to be hot tempered like he did.
    You are 100% correct.

    However, this doesn't negate the wisdom of using an "apology" tactic to defuse the situation. If apologizing for something that really wasn't my fault will derail a potentially messy confrontation, I'll do it. I would not want to rely on "he was unjustly being a hot-head" as my defense in court. Particularly with witnesses who may or may not agree with me when they make statements to the police or take the stand.
    "The flock sleep peaceably in their pasture at night because Sheepdogs stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

  3. #33
    Distinguished Member Array MinistrMalic's Avatar
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    The "big picture" of the answers you are getting: you done fine, son. Chill out, quit second guessing, and leave it be.

    Next time something similar happens it might be worth it to head to another store nearby to avoid hot head, or maybe the apology needs to come as you wave to him with that "sorry, man, didn't do it on purpose" look. At close quarters in the checkout line, though, I think you were spot on.

    As of Sept 30th in AZ you would have been fine in showing the firearm. (I am not familiar with PA so YMMV) A guy that big presents a disparity in force that justifies the weapon, as does the demeanor and him escalating the conflict.
    "...whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one." (Luke 22:36)
    Christianity and Self Defense from a Biblical Perspective

  4. #34
    Member Array Bm7b5's Avatar
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    I think you handled it well. The problem we face in situations like this is tyring to de-escalate while not making ourselves more vulnerable to attack.

    Your experience is a good example of how situations escalate into violence, and would make a great civilian continuum of force (cof) role-playing exercise in a self-defense class.

    I like your verbal response. It served multiple purposes--let the perp know you didn't want trouble, and your tone indicated confidence. It also alerted others that the perp was the aggressor and you were trying to avoid conflict.

    Here are some things to think about as you mentally rehearse similar situations:

    1. By turning to face the perp, you make yourself more vulnerable to a straight on attack.

    2. By showing in any way that you are armed, you could have legal exposure. The perp may also decide to try to grab your gun. Of course, you have to balance this with the deterrent affect it has. There is no "right call" here--you just need to understand the trade-offs.

    3. Having more cof options is helpful. One good tactic is to keep your strong side back and raise your front hand in a "oath-swearing" position while you confidently and clearly say "I don't want any trouble." This keeps you in a more balanced position and gives you quick soft-hands/hard-hands options.

    4. Having OC gives you even more cof options. If you had OC, you'd want it available to your strong side hand since you'll be using your forward hand for soft/hard hands options.

    With this said, it's a crapshoot and there is no right answer. Just scenarios to think about.

    In the end, I think you handled it very well.

    A traffic ticket is formal recognition of a lapse in situational awareness.

  5. #35
    Distinguished Member Array nutz4utwo's Avatar
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    Good job on the encounter being captured on security cameras in checkout! An added bonus in case of trouble...

  6. #36
    Member Array Faitmaker's Avatar
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    I like his comment back to you to save face. "Alright tough guy... Just watch yourself". I'm presuming nobody really saw what he did, so it all looked innocent as he walked away. LOL
    "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand

    NRA Member / Ohio Conceal Carry Instructor
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  7. #37
    Senior Member Array EvilMonk's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Pro2A View Post
    1."It startled me, regardless, I stopped to let him pass."
    2."I figure to avoid trouble I would go around to the other entrance as he seemed to have a hot head."
    3."I parked, got out and walked to the second store entrance. He was walking into the first entrance..."
    4."Again I just ignored him and walked in."
    5."I got what I needed and gave myself enough time to avoid meeting him in a checkout line."
    6."I told him that I don't want any problems and to just leave me alone."
    7."Look man, I don't want any trouble please leave me alone."
    I count 7 instances where you chose to allow this cretin the opportunity to leave you alone and remain in a peaceful state. His encroachment and continued choices in seeking you out for confrontation would make anyone feel the magic legal word of "threatened".

    In my opinion, you acted responsibly and I will even say that your actions in front of the other patrons of the store may have given a strong and favorable view of CC in general (if the exchange was even witnessed fully). The situation, as described, sounds like one that is exemplary of personal safety and defense.

    I will disagree however with those who would advocate an immediate departure from the area at the first sign of trouble. In many cases that I have seen, a sudden issue can also just as suddenly dissipate leaving the "hot" party feeling foolish and silly. I believe in my inherent right to be where I am (unless there is a law or other legitimate reason) wherever or whenever I happen to be there. I will give ground with unnecessary apologies and concessions that "give the baby his bottle", but if pressed, as I believe you were, I will draw a definite line and defend it.

    Well done!
    That which does not kill us leaves us broken and bleeding...

    Don’t mess with the guy who can barely stand up. His remaining options for self-defense don't include your survival.

    Convenire Volui Spectatus

  8. #38
    Member Array kccad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    You should have performed a tactical deployment of your c.c.w. sash.

  9. #39
    VIP Member Array JoJoGunn's Avatar
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    I see no problem with the way you acted, reacted etc. and like others, glad that the outcome wasn't violent.

    The real problem is the attitude of the guy who tapped you on the shoulder. He could have "walked away" same as you. He could have "let it go" same as you. The way I see it, HE had the problem, not you. He chose to escalate and potentially place himself into a deadly situation. This could have culminated in a shooting in the parking lot with him on the losing end. I like to remember that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. You did what anyone here or elsewhere would have done.

    Glad you are safe, and didn't have to use the firearm, even though you would have been totally justified in it's use if the jerk wanted to physically assault you with the intent of deadly force. It might make him think a bit more now that he sees some armed folks there who appear to be willing to use their equipment.
    Last edited by JoJoGunn; October 5th, 2009 at 08:10 AM. Reason: remove word
    "A Smith & Wesson always beats 4 aces!"

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  10. #40
    Member Array HKtexas's Avatar
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    It sounds to me like you handled it great. Obviously this guy had more problems than you "cutting him off" he was just looking for someone to take it out on.

  11. #41
    Distinguished Member Array Pro2A's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpitcock View Post
    "He gave me a quick up and down, saw the PAFOA logo on my hoodie, I'm assuming saw the holster... and then put 1 and 1 together."

    I agree that you probably did nothing wrong...with that said I need to ask - what is PAFOA? Why would you assume he knows what that means? And why assume that he saw your holster?

    I would never assume anything when it comes to self defense or what someone else is thinking.

    All is well that ends well.
    Good luck.
    PAFOA is the Pennsylvania Firearms Owners Association. I added a link to the logo in the OP. My jacket had that logo on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by BurkC View Post
    I love this forum and this is one of my first posts so some might just write me off as a newbie. That's OK because I am a newbie (at least here but not to conceal carry). I really like the forum and hope to exchange ideas here.

    I think you did exactly as most would have done, myself included.

    One question though, kind of as devils advocate: What if he would have seen a cop and started complaining about you "flashing your gun" or something? I know you didn't but he might be pretty persuasive.

    Different states probably have different rules about printing or brandishing.

    Just a topic of conversation.

    In this instance I think witnesses would have been on my side. In PA I would have been ok. In this instance I wasn't going to leave my back exposed to him, I was clearly printing and I turned around. Not much else I could do.

    Thanks to everyone else for the responses

  12. #42
    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    You did good.This guy was nothing more than a bully looking for trouble and sooner or later he will find it.These type of people should never be issued a gun permit or a drivers license.

  13. #43
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    Array Bark'n's Avatar
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    I didn't read any of the responses as I'm kind of pressed for time.

    But here's the bottom line. He didn't touch you. You didn't have to hurt him. You never revealed your gun. He backed down and left.

    Without getting into microscopic examination of all your actions, I'd say you had a pretty successful conflict resolution!

    Good Job!
    Semper Fi

    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  14. #44
    Senior Member Array 2ndsupporter's Avatar
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    Sounds like you did the right thing. As mentioned in this thread, you can never know if this guy has a bladed weapon. He had the gaul to confront you in the store, so who's to say he would'nt have jumped you in the parking lot. Once he saw what he was up againt he at least had on good thought in that pea brain head of his.

    Good Job!!!!
    [One Nation Under God]

  15. #45
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    You should have performed a tactical deployment of your c.c.w. sash.
    There ya go!!!

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