Some hot head gets the point... I think

This is a discussion on Some hot head gets the point... I think within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Paymeister OK, let's see where this goes: First, you did a fine job: you went home to your family and he went ...

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Thread: Some hot head gets the point... I think

  1. #46
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paymeister View Post
    OK, let's see where this goes:

    First, you did a fine job: you went home to your family and he went home to his. NO criticism. Just want everyone to know I'm not slamming how this was actually handled. It worked.

    But, there are different sorts of folks out there. I'm inclined to apologize or take ownership for an awkward situation where perhaps I don't have to. I don't know if this is pathologic weakness or a sign of tremendous self-confidence in knowing I can bend without breaking (we'll leave that for the psychology forums). Thus I'm talking about me and my type of folk right now:

    Is there anything particularly wrong with apologizing profusely to the fellow?

    For example, "Sir, I didn't see you until we were both in the driveway - I certainly didn't mean to cut you off or try to race you through the gate. Had I seen you I would have let you go first, and I'm sorry I put you at risk. I can't take that action back, but I can certainly apologize. Had I been in your place I would have been upset as well... " and so on. You get the idea.

    You know, "A soft answer turns away wrath," for you Proverbs fans. I am kinda thinking of Obi-Wan's friendly approach of offering to buy the fellow a beer... with his hand on a light saber.
    I wouldn't have turned my gunside to him and if he pushed the issue after I gave an apology I would've probably gone into "command voice" mode, with plenty of witnesses, and while backing away from him to create distance.

    "Get Back!
    I don't want trouble!
    Get Back!"

    Then I would turn my head to the cashier to whatever degree possible and loudly say, "Call the Police!"
    Numbskull, hothead, or whatever name he's using today, will most likely depart from the scene. If not, I may have a fight on my hands and will do everything possible to protect my gun.

    To me, this is a defuse and retreat situation. Once you've created a commotion people can't help but wonder what's going on and looking. You've painted him as, which he certainly was, the aggressor. You are also asking for the local constabulary to come riding forth to save you. Those are good things. The one asking for the Police is most often the victim, at least in the minds of the witnesses.

    I don't care if I look like a fool, or create a scene in this scenario. It has the potential to go really bad, and I want to prevent that if possible. Glad you're OK and trouble was averted.

    Biker

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  3. #47
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    +1 BikerRN....

    IMO, you be as polite as you can until it begins to become submissive, and then it should change to a command. IMO, Just because we carry doesn't mean we should let jerks and potential hostile acts rule our behavior to a submissive point.
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." – Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." – Thomas Jefferson

  4. #48
    Member Array Mountaineer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SleepingZ View Post
    From your post, it sounds like you almost hit him with your vehicle, and would have been your fault, now if that is true, I would have turned to him in the check out line and said "I am sorry, I did not see you, glad nothing was damaged, next time I will look twice" Most times if you take responsibility, and apologize, it take the wind out of their sails.
    Z
    +1 SleepingZ. I was going to type exactly that. You never really know the other guys story. That will resolve a huge number of issues like this.

  5. #49
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    I would've probably gone into "command voice" mode, with plenty of witnesses, and while backing away from him to create distance.

    "Get Back!
    I don't want trouble!
    Get Back!"


    Then I would turn my head to the cashier to whatever degree possible and loudly say, "Call the Police!"

    You've painted him as, which he certainly was, the aggressor. You are also asking for the local constabulary to come riding forth to save you.
    Enlisting the help of others demands their attention and involvement, and it creates witnesses to a higher grade detail of what's going on. It's absolutely in our best interests to have the other person seen as the aggressor and us seen as the one taking steps to avoid, deescalate.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
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  6. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Enlisting the help of others demands their attention and involvement, and it creates witnesses to a higher grade detail of what's going on. It's absolutely in our best interests to have the other person seen as the aggressor and us seen as the one taking steps to avoid, deescalate.
    Excellent point! That's exactly what I learned in one of my first classes but had totally lost it in the cloud of things I've learned over the years! Thanks for bring that point to the front of my brain!

    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  7. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by jofrdo View Post
    You went out of your way to avoid the confrontation, and when confronted did your best to defuse the situation. I don't think I could have done better.
    +1 and kudos on your "cool".
    "The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." Eccl. 10:2

  8. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pro2A View Post
    I just never understood how some people can become so mad over a simple traffic mistake. Stuff happens. No sense in picking a fight over it.
    Not to be a snot but I know full well and it never has anything to do with you. The problem is, they don't know that. In the meantime, you and I are dead or seriously wounded if we don't defend ourselves.

    ps. Good call, "Biker". Lots of good info here.
    "The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." Eccl. 10:2

  9. #53
    VIP Member Array jbum's Avatar
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    Perfect reaction in my opinion.

  10. #54
    Senior Member Array Tom357's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paymeister View Post
    ...But, there are different sorts of folks out there. I'm inclined to apologize or take ownership for an awkward situation where perhaps I don't have to. I don't know if this is pathologic weakness or a sign of tremendous self-confidence in knowing I can bend without breaking (we'll leave that for the psychology forums). Thus I'm talking about me and my type of folk right now:

    Is there anything particularly wrong with apologizing profusely to the fellow? ...
    I think so.
    Quote Originally Posted by jumpwing View Post
    You are 100% correct.

    However, this doesn't negate the wisdom of using an "apology" tactic to defuse the situation. If apologizing for something that really wasn't my fault will derail a potentially messy confrontation, I'll do it. I would not want to rely on "he was unjustly being a hot-head" as my defense in court. Particularly with witnesses who may or may not agree with me when they make statements to the police or take the stand.
    Bold in the second quote is my emphasis.

    There is certainly nothing wrong with taking responsibility for one's actions, and apologizing, if appropriate. I don't think it needs to be profuse or groveling, so much as matter of fact and straight forward.

    I do, however, see some real arguments against a policy of appeasement, taking responsibility for something that one did not do, especially in front of witnesses. Whether the aggressor is being aggressive out of prideful embarassment, or out of a true sense of being wronged, apologizing or accepting blame for something the aggressor KNOWS you didn't do places one in a position of extreme weakness and allows the aggressor to justify, to himself, his sense of being wronged. It also allows him to rationalize his anger and aggression, and may actually encourage him to press on for a more complete sense of vindication and 'victory'. Remember that, in this case, the aggression started in the vehicle, continued in the parking lot, and was nurtured inside until Pro2A could be ambushed at the register. Then, there are the witnesses.

    Appeasing the aggressor by taking responsibility for something one did not do, in front of witnesses, suggests to the witnesses that the aggressor was justified in being upset, if not in being aggressive. If the confrontation were to escalate, involve law enforcement, or become a legal matter, especially in a situation like this were there would be no physical evidence of what started the argument, all the witnesses have to report is what was said. Who has admitted wrongdoing? Who said it was their fault? Who justified the upset (if not the aggression)?

    Accepting responsibility for my own faults is plenty. I don't need to accept responsibility for another's faults, too.
    - Tom
    You have the power to donate life.

  11. #55
    Distinguished Member Array Pro2A's Avatar
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    Just for curiosity sake, lets say he did get physical and placed his hands on me to turn me around or something. This is always something I wonder about because it is borderline assault, but not quite enough to draw down on the guy. Coming after me with a tire rod in the parking lot is one thing, but placing his hands on me is another.

    How would you react then?

  12. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pro2A View Post
    Just for curiosity sake, lets say he did get physical and placed his hands on me to turn me around or something. This is always something I wonder about because it is borderline assault, but not quite enough to draw down on the guy. Coming after me with a tire rod in the parking lot is one thing, but placing his hands on me is another.

    How would you react then?
    Excellent question!
    "The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." Eccl. 10:2

  13. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom357 View Post
    I think so.

    Bold in the second quote is my emphasis.

    There is certainly nothing wrong with taking responsibility for one's actions, and apologizing, if appropriate. I don't think it needs to be profuse or groveling, so much as matter of fact and straight forward.

    I do, however, see some real arguments against a policy of appeasement, taking responsibility for something that one did not do, especially in front of witnesses. Whether the aggressor is being aggressive out of prideful embarassment, or out of a true sense of being wronged, apologizing or accepting blame for something the aggressor KNOWS you didn't do places one in a position of extreme weakness and allows the aggressor to justify, to himself, his sense of being wronged. It also allows him to rationalize his anger and aggression, and may actually encourage him to press on for a more complete sense of vindication and 'victory'. Remember that, in this case, the aggression started in the vehicle, continued in the parking lot, and was nurtured inside until Pro2A could be ambushed at the register. Then, there are the witnesses.

    Appeasing the aggressor by taking responsibility for something one did not do, in front of witnesses, suggests to the witnesses that the aggressor was justified in being upset, if not in being aggressive. If the confrontation were to escalate, involve law enforcement, or become a legal matter, especially in a situation like this were there would be no physical evidence of what started the argument, all the witnesses have to report is what was said. Who has admitted wrongdoing? Who said it was their fault? Who justified the upset (if not the aggression)?

    Accepting responsibility for my own faults is plenty. I don't need to accept responsibility for another's faults, too.
    I like what Tom states, and would add that being submissive may just trigger the real jerk within the aggressor too, making him/her even more aggressive.

    I think there is a fine line, but a "Non-Apology" might work too, without appearing to have some type of initial culpability. Something such as, in a loud voice:

    "I am sorry you are so upset" ""I didn't think that it was a big deal at all..", or "I'm sorry you are so offended".......

    Of course, every situation can be different, but you handled it and he left you alone. That's worth something.

  14. #58
    Senior Member Array EvilMonk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pro2A View Post
    Just for curiosity sake, lets say he did get physical and placed his hands on me to turn me around or something. This is always something I wonder about because it is borderline assault, but not quite enough to draw down on the guy. Coming after me with a tire rod in the parking lot is one thing, but placing his hands on me is another.

    How would you react then?
    As I am not a lawyer, this is strictly conjecture...

    In this state, the placing of hands on another person us assault. In fact it was recently pointed out to me that some states still have it that knocking off someone's hat is as well an aggressive act (this is a holdover from the days when no self-respecting gentleman would appear in public without his tophat...).

    So, I surmise that many states would grant you the defensive right at that point, but you would then be relying heavily on the statements of your surrounding witnesses (or cameras in this case...).

    However, you raise the question of (as I read it) personal morals regarding what may at that point be inappropriate and overpowering use of your defensive capabilities (bring a gun to a fist fight). Certainly, a creative and ambitious PA would raise that question in an attempt to "landmark" the case.

    Given though, your description (paraphrase) "He was twice my size", you would, in my mind, be justified in acting in your defense. I would begin Escalation Of Force (Shout, Show, Shove, Shoot) by loudly requesting to me left alone to garner attention from surrounding passers-by (as you somewhat did), then if that was ineffective, I would show him at least the grip of my gun (and my hand on it). The "Shove" portion, best described as a physical warning, may have been dropped by me due to the extreme proximity of the encounter.

    The Element of Surprise is gone with these tactics of course, but he demonstrated an intense desire to bring this "to a head". In that situation, MY Internal Safety would likely be "OFF", and like a skunk in a headstand I'd be ready to shoot...

    Just my opinion...
    That which does not kill us leaves us broken and bleeding...

    Don’t mess with the guy who can barely stand up. His remaining options for self-defense don't include your survival.

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  15. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pro2A View Post
    Just for curiosity sake, lets say he did get physical and placed his hands on me to turn me around or something. This is always something I wonder about because it is borderline assault, but not quite enough to draw down on the guy. Coming after me with a tire rod in the parking lot is one thing, but placing his hands on me is another.

    How would you react then?
    I think in this case you would have to go hands on. There is no clear deadly threat so shooting him would get you into hot water. I think pepper spray would be the right choice here if you carry it but I rarely do. So I would shout something like "Help...call the police!" and defend myself as well as I'm able. Maybe even try to flee. Unless you're old or handi capped there is no disparity of force and no deadly threat (at this time).
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

  16. #60
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    I am not a lawyer nor am I a LEO. However, I did sleep in a Holiday Inn Express...
    "The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." Eccl. 10:2

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