this is a dead man

This is a discussion on this is a dead man within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Sigpack's question about drawing your weapon against somebody holding one on you needs a response. With adequate training, action beats reaction everytime. Try this simple ...

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  1. #31
    New Member Array coyotee's Avatar
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    action vs. reaction

    Sigpack's question about drawing your weapon against somebody holding one on you needs a response.

    With adequate training, action beats reaction everytime. Try this simple drill next time you are training (not simply target shooting). 1 shooter (acting as BG) holding a target at gunpoint. The second shooter starts with his hand on his concealed pistol (as though he is complying with the BGs request). BG cannot shoot until the victim draws his gun. You'll see that the victim will have a shot on target before BG gets a round off. If victim has trained properly, he'll do one fluid sidestep while presenting and firing his weapon into the target. If you have the facilities, the BG should shoot at a swinger target that the victim starts with his movement. Now, BG needs to react, and acquire a target in a new location. Obviously this is only for folks that have a very solid understanding of firearm safety, how to properly present their firearm, etc.

    This can be done very well in a force-on-force scenario, paintball or airsoft. We'd assume that in the actual situation, the two shooters were within a couple feet of one another. This distance should be extended if you are trying force-on-force.

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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array zacii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coyotee View Post
    Sigpack's question about drawing your weapon against somebody holding one on you needs a response.

    With adequate training, action beats reaction everytime. .
    Precisely what I was going to say. And on the .380...in less than 2 seconds the good guy, with good training, could have put 2 shots center of mass and one in the skull. Shot placement. Sure, .357 is better, but training and mindset is best.
    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

    "A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source

  4. #33
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    Perfect outcome due to the "right attitude"!
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

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  5. #34
    Ex Member Array Karter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zacii View Post
    Precisely what I was going to say. And on the .380...in less than 2 seconds the good guy, with good training, could have put 2 shots center of mass and one in the skull. Shot placement. Sure, .357 is better, but training and mindset is best.
    Two shots from a .380 center mass don't prevent the guy from shooting back. You need one in the skull, end of story. Firing center mass gives him a chance to fire back. He may or may not, it depends entirely on how determined he is to fight you.

  6. #35
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    It's amazing what one can read into a situation. Actually, I never said the BG died. He didn't. He survived and is in prison. The body's reactive movements are so much more amplified when one is in a life or death surprise mode. The instant BG sees the threat he turns away from what would have been a heart shot , and the impact is in the shoulder. The judge told BG he was the luckiest person he knew, attacking a retired LEO and getting shot with a 357. Even our most revered calibers need a little help from us. No further shots were indicated, as the threat had ended.

    Evidently the BG was lying in wait for opportunity. He was listed in a gang database, had a calm, professional manner, but all that changed when surprise overtook his subconscious.
    Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776

    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
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  7. #36
    Member Array sigpack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zacii View Post
    Precisely what I was going to say. And on the .380...in less than 2 seconds the good guy, with good training, could have put 2 shots center of mass and one in the skull. Shot placement. Sure, .357 is better, but training and mindset is best.
    Probably right. But it doesn't take 2 seconds to pull a trigger. You cannot outdraw a drawn gun.

    I hope no one on here has to make a choice like that.

  8. #37
    Distinguished Member Array Spec's Avatar
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    cleaning up the streets, good. hope no legal BS
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  9. #38
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    Nope, no legal BS. Remember, he's a lawyer. They didn't even remind him of his legal rights, so he told them everything that happened. Once you've been read your rights, shut up. They had to "borrow" his gun, for whatever reason, but I assure you he had plenty more to fill the void.

    In CA the BG's never think they'll ever run into someone with a permit to carry.
    Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776

    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
    -Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95

  10. #39
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    Appears to me he made the correct action or the situation wouldn't have turned out the way it did. I see only three choices he had: Disarm the attacker, which sounds like it would have had a good chance of success since he was so close, draw your own weapon and take an immediate shot, which was successful or give up your wallet. For me, the last option isn't going to happen. It's just as likely he would shoot you after giving him what he wanted making his job easy. As it is he will probably not be so confident that he has a sheep next time he tries this.....
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  11. #40
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    The disarm and/or exploding off the X is a viable option for the young guns. I would caution the BG's everywhere that they be very careful targeting the older sheep. We just have to stand there and shoot.
    Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776

    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
    -Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95

  12. #41
    Senior Member Array Ragin Cajun's Avatar
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    Good for that guy on protecting himself. It's too bad that most in the state of CA don't have that option...

  13. #42
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    You know, after the first page of congratulations on the death of the BG, I kept asking myself, "Where did it say it really got killed?" Thanks for the update. The other thing, though, is this: Okay it was finally getting cooler, but jogging at 1:30 in the morning? Even in an upscale neighborhood...
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  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigpack View Post
    Does anyone else think that drawing your gun when facing a BG with his gun already drawn and pointed at you might be a bad idea.
    If you do not have a fairly high level of skill & competency acquired by a lot of training and range time, coupled with an offensive mindset and a fair amount of guts and determination, then yes, it may very well be a bad idea.

    I do not have just the entry level ccw qualification training that a large portion of ccw carriers have. I, like many others here have decades of professional training and shooting experience. What works for me certainly may not work for others.


    Quote Originally Posted by sigpack View Post
    Sure in ths case it worked out but if the BG was a little sharper it could have ended differently. When he saw your gun all he had to do was pull the trigger and BG wins.
    Absolutely, and if you don't have the guts, determination and competency in your ability, I would say comply and hope for the best! There are no guarantees in life.


    Quote Originally Posted by sigpack View Post
    If a BG got the drop on me I would comply and hand over the wallet unless I became convinced he was going to shoot anyway. Then you have no choice.
    What do you look for that is going to convince you he is going to shoot anyway? Do you wait until you see his muzzle flash?

    Look, for me... as soon as he sticks his gun out at me, he is telling me that he is attempting to negotiate for my life.

    I ain't negotiating for my life! If I get shot or killed it is going to be because of my decision to act, and not because I just stood there and let him determine what he was going to do to me.
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  15. #44
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigpack View Post
    Does anyone else think that drawing your gun when facing a BG with his gun already drawn and pointed at you might be a bad idea. Sure in ths case it worked out but if the BG was a little sharper it could have ended differently. When he saw your gun all he had to do was pull the trigger and BG wins. If a BG got the drop on me I would comply and hand over the wallet unless I became convinced he was going to shoot anyway. Then you have no choice.

    I have not yet finished this thread, but did anyone else mention that purse carry could be an advantage here....if a woman is 'digging in her purse for her wallet' and shoots the BG from the purse? (Doesnt even draw it).

    She's only likely to get one shot off from in the purse if it's a semi-auto (with the slide action), but it seems possible.

    For myself, in most cases, I think that once someone has a gun drawn on me, I'm better off giving them my wallet. I will not, however, go anywhere with someone or get in a car.

  16. #45
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karter View Post
    Two shots from a .380 center mass don't prevent the guy from shooting back. You need one in the skull, end of story. Firing center mass gives him a chance to fire back. He may or may not, it depends entirely on how determined he is to fight you.
    I find it hard to believe that it's recommended to take the time to aim for a head shot when a BG has a gun already drawn. Is this so?

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