Office Carry, Help me Parse This Language
This is a discussion on Office Carry, Help me Parse This Language within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I recently moved offices, and now may have the opportunity to carry. My old building had a sign prohibiting weapons (which has legal force in ...
October 6th, 2009 07:44 AM
Office Carry, Help me Parse This Language
I recently moved offices, and now may have the opportunity to carry. My old building had a sign prohibiting weapons (which has legal force in NC). New building has no sign.
Company policy says that firearms are prohibited in all properties that the company "owns, operates, manages or controls". Well, we do not own, operate or manage it. A 3rd party developer has built and owns the office park, we are just tenants. A property management company operates and manages the facility. We are the only tenants of the building.
What I can't figure out, is if we "control" the building. Certainly, we have some control over access. We tell security which visitors can get in. This is the same for every tenant though - you can let visitors into your apartment and buzz them through. That doesn't mean you "control" access though. We don't control the access of the maintenance staff for example.
I don't know if any of this matters. I think bottom line, the culture is anti-gun enough that it would do my career damage to be outed even if I weren't fired. Yes, I'm a "career" man. 11 years, and clawed my way up lots of stinking steps of the lousy ladder. Some days I could let the whole business rot but it does pay very well and good benefits.
Any experience of people carrying daily for years at an office without being outed? My setup is a PM9 in a very nice IWB Galco tuck holster. With my button up long-sleeve shirts bloused it seems pretty undetectable...until that day I do a bit of lifting while moving or something and it comes untucked...for the most part I sit in a chair all day and talk on the phone or work on my computer.
The main reason I want to carry, is otherwise I think I'll never be carrying when I enter a gas station or store, or in my car or in a dodgy parking lot or a million other scenarios where I won't bother to take the gun out of a safe in my car if I'm not just wearing it all day as a routine. Sure there are shootings in offices too to be mindful of.
October 6th, 2009 07:44 AM
October 6th, 2009 08:07 AM
Although you may not be violating NC law, your company certainly 'operates or manages' your office space...didn't they rent/lease it?
You have to decide if your job is worth CCW...if you are discovered.
"That I cannot do."
"Give this to, uh, Clemenza. I want reliable people, people who aren't going to be carried away. After all we're not murderers in spite of what this undertaker thinks."
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member
October 6th, 2009 08:15 AM
Very tough situation. I would say that because a tentant has rights of occupancy, quiet enjoyment of the property, keep out trespassers, etc.,the tenant has "control." Not total control, absolute control, but definitely control.
In other words, if you carry and it becomes known somehow, you've got an uphill climb saying that the policy didn't apply to the premises where you work., and it was an honest mistake. That's my humble opinion.
It doesn't answer your question, but I think that you should weigh your decision to carry at work from the point of view that if your deep conceal fails for some reason, the likelihood would be that you're gone.
October 6th, 2009 08:56 AM
The policy is clear, it prohibits carry.
October 6th, 2009 09:02 AM
I would say that your company does operate, manage, AND control the office space. Maybe not the complex. Maybe not the entire building. But that which they utilize, they operate, manage, AND control.
Having said that, I carry daily at work. I work spraying pest control, so I am physically active all day and I am in and out of clients homes all day. I know that if my boss were to find out I carry, I'd get in trouble and there would be a rule against it, especially if he found out from a client!
I carry a SA XD subcompact 9mm in a SuperTuck. Slightly larger and thus slightly harder to conceal than your PM9. I wear shirts with extra long tails that almost guarantee that they will remain tucked in.
I personally would be very comfortable concealing the PM9 after months of keeping my XD covered. The big difference for us is that I do NOT rely on my job. I am NOT career. I do NOT get insurance or any other benefits from my job. If my boss were to let me go tomorrow for ANY reason, I could have my meager income replaced, if not improved within a week. You have to decide for yourself if you are comfortable carrying in YOUR situation. I will tell you it CAN be done. The big question now is do you feel there is too much risk?
"When seconds count, the police are only minutes away." * "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight."
October 6th, 2009 10:06 AM
Since they are leasing a portion of the building they have control of the area they lease. You get caught, you get fired and you have no recourse.
October 6th, 2009 10:14 AM
I always look for the angle of things. I do beleive that your company policy as dumb as it may be would hold.
October 6th, 2009 10:27 AM
It sounds like you're splitting hairs her. You may win the battle, but in the end you'll lose the war.
If your carrying at work were discovered, could you afford to loose the war?
Don't believe what you hear and only half of what you see!
October 6th, 2009 10:34 AM
You are risking your job. Definitely splitting hairs. A half decent attorney would fry you in court.
Friends don't let friends be MALL NINJAS.
I am just as nice as anyone lets me be and can be just as mean as anyone makes me. - Quoted from Terryger, New member to our forum.
October 6th, 2009 10:42 AM
As long as you are only violating "company policy" and not the law...I would say "screw company policy" & I personally would be armed...but, maybe that's just me.
Were I you I would make an investment in a new firearm.
Ideally, say....a Rohrbaugh 9mm or less ideally a little .380 or even a baby Walther would be better than nada.
Even though the Rohrbaugh 9mm is pricey they do hold their resale value and are also likely to attain future collector status so they are a decent investment firearm if kept in excellent condition.
Then I would pocket carry it and never mention it to anyone. You need to ask yourself if you have the ability to keep your mouth perma-shut regarding your pocket contents.
As long as you are not having to pass through metal detectors and/or are not getting "wanded" or frisked by Security going in or out.
Who would ever know?
October 6th, 2009 10:55 AM
It's only your job, it's only your life.
Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776
Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
-Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95
October 6th, 2009 11:00 AM
According to that language, you would even be in violation of company policy (technically) if they had a section of a parking garage assigned to the company and you carried there.
Since there is no sign, the law permits carry. Therefore, you are not in violation of the law. But you are definitely in violation of company policy if you carry at work. If discovered, you would most likely face disciplinary action and very possibly loss of your job.
It's up to you to decide, but in the current job climate, I wouldn't be to quick to risk my job.
October 6th, 2009 11:36 AM
sence it is not agenst the law to carry, the choice is yours.
just remember to gage your ability to conceal vs there ablity to see.
also factor in the accidental brush discovery and the BG entering the office.
then make up your own mind knowing that if discovered you will lose your job and posably your reputation in that field.
"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution, which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." -1792, James Madison
There are always too many Democratic, Republican and never enough U.S. congressmen.
October 6th, 2009 11:38 AM
Just realize you are jeopardizing your job if you carry. Regardless of the legal loophole you think you’ve found.
October 6th, 2009 11:47 AM
My company's policy states "no unauthorized possession of a firearm." Well, I am licensed to carry concealed firearms. No problem....BUT if the bosses discovered weapons and decided to take exception, they could get rid of me for their own reasons. It's not hard to find a way if they want to free someone of their employment.
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Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no Vice
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