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Do I have the right mindset on this?

3K views 38 replies 28 participants last post by  paramedic70002 
#1 ·
I'm a big guy 6'2" like 350-375 what have you. Never been in a fight my whole life (22 btw). Now my father raised me to defend myself (if a guy bullied me when i went to school or whatever ). You know like how guys are taught to fist fight if necessary and problems solved. I'm sure you guys get the idea. The thing is that I hate fights and dont want to fight. So now we all know how times are kind of hard, people are doing crazy things to get by (robberies, etc). Now the way I think is like here in South East Texas meth is a big deal for the "not so great part of society" (i dont want to say badguys but you get what i mean. Now say I get into an altercation or a guy is trying to rob me and he winds up wanting to fight me. now for aguments sake he dosent have a weapon pulled (maybe he has one i dont know). And lets say I cant leave or dont have a phone to call 911. Now I dont want to fight because how do i know this guy isnt on meth even if we did scuffle he probably wouldnt feel a thing. So would it be logical to pull a gun on this person and hopes he runs away? (but i would still be able to pull the trigger if he pulled a gun or violently started to attack me). I don;t think I would be justafiable in pulling a gun because there was no imediate threat, it would be more of a feeling or a hunch if you will that this guy may be a drugged out robber who would do anything to get my wallet. Sorry for this long confusing rant/senerio it has been in the back of my mind for some time now. :embarassed:
 
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#2 ·
When you pull your weapon it had better be with the intention of using it at that very moment and you had better be legally authorized to do so.

Guns are not to scare, threaten or intimidate someone into compliance. The dynamics of the scenario may change, and you may not need to shoot, but there are no guarantees.

I suggest you read Massad Ayoob's book, "In The Gravest Extreme", for starters abd maybe spend some time reading various post in the "Tactics and Scenarios" section.

Biker
 
#3 ·
Getting into an altercation and getting robbed are two different scenarios. If you are getting robbed, you can draw your gun on him. In Texas, you can use the threat of force (pulling your gun) even though at that point deadly force is not justified. Getting into a fight is different. If you are a mutual participant in the fight you can't draw your gun. You would need to break off the fight, declare your intention to stop. If he follows you after that, it's assault and you can use your gun as a threat like before, but it's a little risky.

You're 6'2 and 375, how many people want to fight you?
 
#4 ·
Number one, carry a phone...that's an important tool that may save you from being caller #2 to 911.

Walk away from trouble, if you can run, do so.
If a crime is unavoidable, use the force necessary to prevent it and call 911.
 
#5 ·
BikerRN said it. Also get some basic hand to hand skills. Just because you have a gun doesn't mean it's your only tool/option.
 
#6 ·
#31 ·
An excellent bit of advice here! ^^
Read the WHOLE thing all 11 pages of it.

Do not do so and well that will be your own story for reason of being largely if not completely ignorant.
No diss to that threads OP but if she had visited this site _BEFORE_ the incident and spent time to review the information here and took the very many (!) items of advisory posted as toheart,,,,Then she would not have been in this situation nor made the moves she made which directly resulted in a conviction.

Read that thread, and learn from it by proxy!

BTW your height and weight does not matter.
Further if as you state you have never been in a fight then that means you have never been HIT. Being hit and I mean hit for real with bad intentions will wake a person up, or knock them out cold. Either way it sucks. Get in some training now, while you can.

Also at your size it is not likely you would be all that effective in a fight even against a smaller person due to your out right physical mass which is a real world limiter and with that your very likely lack of cardiovascular development.

I stand 6'1" and am this week 175 lbs. I normally vary between 160 and 175 season to season.
I've been in fights before, for real....Including big guys just like you (college and in my 20s before I decided to 'change' and grow up). Often times big guys like you have the exact same life experience having never been in a real fight (tested) simply because all through K-12 growing up no kid had the stones to want to mess with you as you were always bigger/huskier than others of the same age group or neighborhood in general.
The stunner for guys like you though is relatively easy & quick. A swift kick from mid distance or a knee if when up close, direct and deep into your guts.
You the big/huge guy will double over in intense pain like a tree struck by lightening. Game over. Now what.

Train and do not depend on your size alone for intimidation factor.
That I'm a 'big guy' view may work on many if not most folk and women who also to the majority have never been in a fight.
But there are people out there, including armed criminals, who know better and if motivated will not hesitate to knock you into next week. Just for the challenge and to be able to say they did it/did you.

But again do read that thread as suggested by RugerGirl.
It is or should be a wake up call for anyone who is or has been asleep.

Be careful out there.

- Janq
 
#27 ·
I do not "endorse" this mindset. I agree with 90% of it however I do not concede that one needs to learn how to fight. Your mindset appears to be that "fighting" is acceptable. In my world, "fighting" is never acceptable - wining is the only acceptable outcome. If that requires that I physically run away as fast as I can, then that is what I will do.


I'm reminded of the saying ,"when all you have in your tool bag is a hammer, eveything begins to look like a nail".

You need more in your tool bag.
This include running and running shoes, the verbal art of pleading and crying, and whatever else you need to do to convince the BG/aggressor that you aren't worth his time or trouble.

If you have tried everything, including attempting to run away and you still have someone who is trying to harm you, then and only then is it time to defend yourself. And, if you have to defend yourself, you MUST "win."

The gun is the last resort. Just before you get to that point, you should consider how to call 911 and be sure that you explain the situation and that you are still on the line when the final challenge from the aggressor is made.
 
#9 ·
ozzyzig87

You need to read this so you fully understand the law here in Texas and what you'd be up against at trial:
PENAL CODE   CHAPTER 9. JUSTIFICATION EXCLUDING CRIMINAL RESPONSIBILITY

as others have said, you need to consider all options when confronted with someone, get some hand to hand skills, you can't always resort pulling a gun every time

a prospective bad guy would need to do/show something that you would reasonably believe would cause you serious bodily harm or death, or other situations specified in the link above
make sure to read Sec. 9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON in the link I gave above
 
#11 ·
I think everybody who can should take some self defence courses. As well as more handgun courses. There are so many different ways we can end up in a Bad Situation and very few of them are going to be clear cut.

But bottom line: A gun should NEVER be used to "hope the bad guys runs away". A gun should ONLY be used with the intent of using the gun. If the bad guy happens to see the gun, decide he doesn't want to be dead, and immediately flees - well, good for you, now call 911 and let them know what happened so you don't get a brandishing charge (or worse) later.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Here in SC, we have a duty to retreat
Sometimes...In SC:

"As a general matter, before using deadly force, even in self-defense, you have a duty to retreat in the following circumstances:

1. on a public street or highway, even when in own automobile. State v. McGee, 185 S.C. 184, 190, 193 S.E. 303, 306 (1937).
2. in a store where the public is invited. State v. Peeples, 126 S.C. 422, 120 S.E. 361 (1923)."

There is no duty to retreat from your property, your place of business, or from a friend's property where you are a guest. There is no duty to retreat if "if to do so would apparently increase [your] danger."

In SC, to be justified in drawing your weapon, you must "believe you are in imminent danger of loss of life or serious bodily injury." Size disparity (you're 70, 140, and 5'5" and the attacker is 25, 225 and 6'3"), and number advantage (you=1, attackers=3) are both taken into account. If the attacker has a weapon, opportunity, and intent, you're clear to draw. Now, almost anything can be classed as a weapon, including a piece of wood, wallet chain, or even a large, heavy belt buckle.

My CWP Instructor, a retired 25-year veteran of a local PD, told us: "If someone comes at you with their fists, you must assume they're Joe Louis. If they have a bat, you must assume they're Babe Ruth. If they have a knife, you must assume they know how to use it, including throwing it. If they have a gun, you must assume they intend to use it with deadly effect. Act accordingly." The penalty for being wrong is too severe. Legalities aside for a moment, think about it. There is no such thing as a "fair fight" or the Marquis of Queensbury Rules on the street. As someone once said, if you find yourself in a "fair fight" on the street, your tactics suck. The bottom-line object is to survive, and to do whatever it takes to accomplish that. If someone walks towards me swinging a knife, I'm not going to wait until he cuts me to assume evil intent on his part. If he points a gun at me during a robbery, I'm not going to let him get off the first shot to assume he wants to kill me. Now, I'd NEVER advocate anyone break the law, but when asked why he shot the guy, someone once said, "Because he's dead and I'm alive, and that's how I wanted it to end."

"It's better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6."
 
#14 ·
I have one problem with fighting while armed.

First off I'm not afraid to fight, in fact I've trained in martial arts, I've fought many times in my life....far too many. Where I grew up if you didn't fight back you simple got beat up.

With that said, I'd rather fight then shoot any day. But what bothers me is that if I get into a fight and the other fighter manages to knock my gun out. Then what?

What happens if the opposing fighter gets your gun? That concept bothers me.
 
#15 ·
I agree with the general response. Retreat and keep distance if possible. Make it very clear you want nothing to do with it. If there is anyone remotely around, yell at the top of your lungs that you do not want to fight, and that you wish for him to back off. Call 911 if possible. I would say draw your firearm if he continues to pursue you, but I'm no lawyer. Drawing your firearm should be the 2nd to last option. Firing should be your last option.

I'm sure no one here wants to take a life, but I'm sure everyone here would rather it be the BG, and not themselves.

Oh, and this would be a great use for non-lethal weapons like a stun gun or pepper spray. (Assuming the aggressor is unarmed.)
 
#16 ·
If you're not getting paid for your fisticuffs, you're simply being juvenile.

Fist fighting over the age of 18 - either with a "bully" or an aggressive person - is foolish. Period.

An adult uses every one of his/her abilities to de-escalate the confrontation with an aggressive person. If they strike you, that is assault. Take it from there.

Even as a guy over 50, I am 6'1" and 215 pounds. I work out five days a week and have a trainer. I am currently enrolled in Krav Maga. My size and appearance are part and parcel of my defensive mindset. Also, I dress modestly and conservatively: no piercings or visible tatts or "tough guy" apparel. If I am ever on the winnning end of an SD shooting, I am not going to look like I asked for it.

Are tatts, piercings, and TapOut clothes illegal? No.

Should they be? Absolutely not.

Do I "judge" you by your appearance? I sure do. Everyone else does - including LEOs. Why shouldn't I do it?

Could I fight? Sure.

Am I going to duke it out with some jerk over a parking spot or a drunk at the bar? Nope.
 
#33 ·
If you're not getting paid for your fisticuffs, you're simply being juvenile.

Fist fighting over the age of 18 - either with a "bully" or an aggressive person - is foolish. Period.

An adult uses every one of his/her abilities to de-escalate the confrontation with an aggressive person. If they strike you, that is assault. Take it from there.

Am I going to duke it out with some jerk over a parking spot or a drunk at the bar? Nope.
The OP gave a very specific scenario based question. He said nothing about starting a fight with anyone for any reason, especially not over a parking spot or a drunk. OP is speaking about someone coming at him.

Perhaps I've mis-interpreted your post Mac, please keep this in mind with my reply below.
I completely disagree with your statement that if one isn't being paid for your fisticuffs. Just as if we are forced into a deadly force situation we can also be forced into a situation where we must use whatever we have at hand (no pun intended), including fists and other objects. This isn't juvenile.....its self-defense. Over age 18 or any other age has no bearing on the situation and makes no sense to me.
Yes we should try to first avoid a problem, but next if one can't be avoided try to get out of the problem in the easiest manner. But if we're forced to punch, hit, kick, whatever with someone that wants to attack us that isn't foolish or juvenile.
Again, maybe I misunderstood your post, but what you said sounds just like the logic used by the anti-gun crowd talking about us and our firearms.

Sometimes a confrontation will only take words, sometimes a palm strike to the nose, sometimes shooting.
 
#17 ·
At my age I'm not inclined to "man up" to some aggressive bully twice my size and half my age. An assault on me by such a person could mean the end of me. I won't make bold and foolish statements about what I would do to counter the threat but it's enough to say that all options would be on the table.
 
#18 ·
"As a general matter, before using deadly force, even in self-defense, you have a duty to retreat in the following circumstances:

1. on a public street or highway, even when in own automobile. State v. McGee, 185 S.C. 184, 190, 193 S.E. 303, 306 (1937).
It was my understanding that with the castle law in SC you do not have duty to retreat in your automobile


Statute
SECTION 16-11-410. Citation of article.

This article may be cited as the "Protection of Persons and Property Act".

SECTION 16-11-420. Intent and findings of General Assembly.

(A) It is the intent of the General Assembly to codify the common law Castle Doctrine which recognizes that a person's home is his castle and to extend the doctrine to include an occupied vehicle and the person's place of business.

(B) The General Assembly finds that it is proper for law-abiding citizens to protect themselves, their families, and others from intruders and attackers without fear of prosecution or civil action for acting in defense of themselves and others.

(C) The General Assembly finds that Section 20, Article I of the South Carolina Constitution guarantees the right of the people to bear arms, and this right shall not be infringed.

(D) The General Assembly finds that persons residing in or visiting this State have a right to expect to remain unmolested and safe within their homes, businesses, and vehicles.

(E) The General Assembly finds that no person or victim of crime should be required to surrender his personal safety to a criminal, nor should a person or victim be required to needlessly retreat in the face of intrusion or attack.
 
#19 ·
Thank you all for your responses. I just want to point out that I absolutley 110% that if i pull a gun, the attacker probably wont flee. It's something that would be great to not to have to shoot someone, but if need be i would be able to. I also should probably take some self defense courses just in case. I've been in numerous confruntations that ended up being defused verbally, but one day that luck might run out. Like said I thank you all for your responses, it has really got me thinking beyond the box and I could have made a bad mistake accordingly.
 
#23 ·
Ozzy you need to take a class on use of deadly force when and how to apply it,First line of defense is verbal commands,"stay away from me I don't want you to come any closer"most people would stay away,anybody that would continue to advance has now become more of a threat,back away from the threat while continuing to yell that you are scared he is going to rob you etc.and to go away,assuming he has not presented a weapon yet,if you see a knife or him reach for a gun then draw and stop the threat
 
#30 ·
Fair enough - pepper spray.

I definitely wouldn't risk trying to fight someone. I'm pretty good at getting people to chill out though.

Let's say you get in a fight, punch him in the head too many times and his brain swells and he dies. You killed him - furthermore, it's more difficult to argue that you were being defensive since you were fighting, not running. Just ask that dude in Chicago who got "beat up" by those gangbangers. He got "in a fight." Now he's dead. The death or serious bodily harm argument stands when someone's decided to start punching you in the face. As soon as they go for your face, you have to assume they're going to kill you - it happens all the time.

Plenty of fights go wrong and someone gets punched in the temple - their brain swells and they die. That's why I don't get in fights. Everything's "boys will be boys" until someone's in a coffin.

So, no, I'm going to avoid getting in a fight. If the dude keeps coming at me and I've got nowhere to run away, I'm going to employ more serious means. I'm not going to let him start using my face as a punching bag.
 
#28 ·
Keep in mind not everyone is physically capable of fighting. Should a wheel chair bound Veteran be told to retreat before he can pull his concealed handgun to save his life? It is often the physically disabled and elderly that are targeted by criminals because they're considered weak and in the eyes of criminals, they appear to be easy prey.

I'm partially disabled myself due to a previous injury and I'll do everything I can to keep from fighting. If I injure my already bad hip joint from fighting, I'm royally screwed, and the thug has the upper hand. If retreating is not an option I carry pepper spray. If a guy decides he wants to kick my butt for whatever reason, I don't know if he has a weapon or not. If he presents no lethal weapon I'll pull my pepper spray. If he pulls a knife or a gun, I'll skip the spray and go straight to deadly force, why should I defend myself against a deadly threat with something less lethal?

Not everyone can run away or engage in hand to hand self defense. For some "manning up" is simply not an option. I just want to be left alone and I will do what it takes stay alive.
 
#32 ·
I don't condone "fighting" or "manning up" but I do condone being able to defend yourself.

Here's what I mean. Guy wants to beat you up, you have nowhere to run and he's backed you into a corner. You should be able to defend yourself. So if he attacks you, you should be able to parry or block his attack. This is different than saying "bring it on tough guy". This is "ok so i've got no choice but to defend myself". It will not involve a gun unless he has a knife or something to attack me with that is going to cause great bodily harm and/or death. Then you have another scenario and this is the tough one for a lot of people. Guy has a knife, you are able to smack his arm hard enough to make him drop the knife. At that point you changed the situation to be in your favor. You should not at that point draw your weapon on that person. I suppose legally you could as he did have the intent, but he no longer has the means. Better to evade. Don't want the adrenaline flow and nerves make your finger press the bang button...

I like to say, use equal force. If he has the means and intent to kill, then you know what to do. Once that is no longer the case (maybe he ran away, you knocked the weapon away, he dropped it etc) I won't think about using a weapon at that point. I will still be on guard, but not immediately on the draw.

Then there is the last thing that comes to mind. You have a guy with a weapon threatening you. You draw and he runs, you don't shoot.

All in all I believe you should have some defense skills beyond the gun, but not necessarily looking for trouble and allowing a fight to ensue. First thing is verbal commands. Loud and firm allowing anyone close to also hear you and draw attention to the situation.
 
#35 ·
I like to say, use equal force.
Just don't mistake "equal" for "identical".

Defend from deadly force with deadly force.

If you put me in reasonable, immediate fear of life and limb with a gun, I'm going to shoot you.

If you do the same thing with a knife or a club, I'm going to shoot you.

If you're much bigger, faster, and stronger than me, or if you and your friends outnumber me, there's a pretty good chance I'm going to shoot you. That's called a "disparity of force" scenario.

Deadly force is deadly force, whether it's a gun, knife, or a three sectional staff. Two or more on one can constitute deadly force too.

As I said elsewhere, I work pretty hard to avoid situations where I might need to shoot somebody. That having been said, I'm not going to endanger myself in any way if you REALLY want to work at forcing me into a situation where I have a legally valid reason to shoot you.

Avoid stupid people (especially those who get drunk or high and hit each other). Avoid the places where they congregate. If they come to you and force their stupidity on you, don't endanger yourself to protect them.
 
#36 ·
One thing I have not seen mentioned, suprisingly, is:

There is at least one gun at every fight you get involved in, YOUR'S!

You need to keep control of your gun. That generally means not grappling with people that want to do you harm. If someone gets control of your gun, what then?

Biker
 
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