I married an attorney. :-)
This is a discussion on What do you do for Post Draw Protection? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Attorneys, cops, charges, holding cells--what's important is being alive to face the aftermath of the gunfight. I'll take that over being dead and declared "innocent!"...
Attorneys, cops, charges, holding cells--what's important is being alive to face the aftermath of the gunfight. I'll take that over being dead and declared "innocent!"
After 911 and lock jaw (keeping my mouth shut). I will then call an attorney. I have a couple of friends who are business attorneys and can recommend if need be.
"Government is not the solution to our problem; government IS the problem". - Ronald Reagan 1981
What you are saying, is that if you are ever in a shooting situation, you will take whatever comes along afterwards just because you are glad to have survived. In the meantime you will do nothing to protect yourself except troll around on internet forums.
Well, bankruptcy no longer fully discharges your debts. That means when/if you are found civilly liable you will likely lose your home and your finances as well as starting to pay monthly for the rest of your life to those who sued you as well as your attorney. Did you know that defense in a civil suit can cost over $100,000? No money? No problem, defend yourself. If you can. And, your spouse can be held liable for YOUR debts as well through your marriage if you live in a community property state. Kiss your family harmony goodbye in any event.
Criminal prosecution is slightly different. Yes, you can get a public defender appointed in your case if you can't afford an attorney. Our jails and prisons are full of folks who went that route. Here's the real kicker. Just because you were criminally prosecuted doesn't mean that you can't be civilly sued. And juries just love to vote against folks who are in prison at the time.
Insurance is cheap. If you carry, you should have some.
I have this printed in my wallet. I'm also a member of the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network.
Dear Officer: If I have given this to you, I have unfortunately had to do what was necessary to defend innocent life. I am willing to sign a criminal complaint against the perpetrators(s). I will point out witnesses and evidence.
As you may have experienced yourself, this is a stressful and traumatic experience for me. Therefore, I wish to make no further statements until I have contacted an attorney and composed myself. I also do not consent to any searches. I will cooperate fully once I have consulted with an attorney and calmed down. As a lawfully armed citizen, I ask for the same courtesy that you would show a fellow officer who was involved in a similar situation.
Thank-you. Printed on_____________
Would you care to elaborate?
It's nothing more than the advice Masaad Ayoob, and others, have given out...put onto a piece of paper.
Pilots use checklists, because humans forget things, especially while under stress.
I'd rather shut my mouth and hand this card (or read it) to the first responding officer. It will also remind me to point out evidence, invoke my rights, refuse to consent to a search, etc.
What's the issue?
Seriously, that card makes several statements you DO NOT want to admit to. Nor it is legally sufficient to constitute an assertion of your rights. With that card you are voluntarily giving a written confession to the police, written prior to your acts, which describes your actions in taking the life of a human being, which is legally admissible to prove your GUILT yet contains NO facts which would exonerate you or describe the circumstances which required that you act out of fear for your life, and finally, does not stop the state from continuing to question you.
Seriously stupid idea. Beyond that even. If you EVER have to act; sit down, shut up, and wait until you make bail to call your insurer to file a claim and request legal representation under your policy. The Public Defender can represent you through your bail hearing.
Do I care to elaborate...
Been done before, so no. I don't care to elaborate any further.
Oh, forget it.
Use the card. Sign a confession while you are at it...
Wait. That's what the card effectively is.
Self defense is an affirmative legal defense. You are admitting you shot the guy, but arguing it was justified.
Masaad argues against the "just shut up" approach, because it makes you look guilty, and the police need something to go on. Witnesses and evidence vanish unless you point it out. The card reminds you to do that, among other things.
Oh...persons guilty of something don't volunteer to sign criminal complaints.
We'll just have to agree to disagree.
Thank you for the clarification on justification defenses.
I didn't take notes on that when I went to law school because I was too busy with being hung over for my 1st year Criminal Law class (Glenfiditch is my friend...)
...But that's alright, because I seem to have picked it up in practice over the past few years doing criminal defense work.
I like Ayoob's take on things, and executed correctly, it works; however, the card is a rather poor joke twisting his advice from simplicity to complexity.
If you've bothered to read the links I posted, you'd see the numerous reasons I have for disagreeing with the card.
You are entitled to have your opinion. You & others are also entitled to twist the advice Ayoob gives into complexity because you can't understand "Less Is More"
As you will...
I have cards for two lawyers who have specific experience defending self-defense shooters, and who have the best records for successful defense in those situations. They also teach the review of pertinent laws in CC classes in my county.
You have the power to donate life.
Thanks for doing so!
That which does not kill us leaves us broken and bleeding...
Donít mess with the guy who can barely stand up. His remaining options for self-defense don't include your survival.
Convenire Volui Spectatus
To my mind, if you can remember Ayoob's advice while under the stress of a traumatic self-defense incident, then by all means, don't use the card or a checklist.
However, if you are human like most of us, it might be helpful to have something to jog your memory. The basic elements are:
1. He attacked me, I was in fear for my life
2. I will sign a criminal complaint
3. Evidence is over there
4. Witnesses are over there
5. I do not consent to any searches
6. I do not wish to say anything further without an attorney
That's a lot to remember while you are under stress, or maybe even wounded yourself.
You have to balance the risk of a rouge DA using this card against you, versus the risk of forgetting an element of this advice.
I see it as preparation, and any element of preparation can be used by a rouge DA against you as evidence of supposed "premeditation" - the fact that you carry a gun, a knife, use "killer" hollow points, attend classes to learn how to kill more efficiently, etc.
The fact that you print this card, put a date on it, and then do not use it for many many years (hopefully never) should help argue against "premeditation."
Folks can decide for themselves the risk/benefit ratio of this idea.