What do you do for Post Draw Protection?

This is a discussion on What do you do for Post Draw Protection? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Attorneys, cops, charges, holding cells--what's important is being alive to face the aftermath of the gunfight. I'll take that over being dead and declared "innocent!"...

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Thread: What do you do for Post Draw Protection?

  1. #16
    Member Array OLDPUPPYMAX's Avatar
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    Attorneys, cops, charges, holding cells--what's important is being alive to face the aftermath of the gunfight. I'll take that over being dead and declared "innocent!"

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  3. #17
    bae
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    I married an attorney. :-)

  4. #18
    Distinguished Member Array Rcher's Avatar
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    After 911 and lock jaw (keeping my mouth shut). I will then call an attorney. I have a couple of friends who are business attorneys and can recommend if need be.
    "Government is not the solution to our problem; government IS the problem". - Ronald Reagan 1981

  5. #19
    Senior Member Array Rob P.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OLDPUPPYMAX View Post
    Attorneys, cops, charges, holding cells--what's important is being alive to face the aftermath of the gunfight. I'll take that over being dead and declared "innocent!"
    I find this sort of post irresponsible.

    What you are saying, is that if you are ever in a shooting situation, you will take whatever comes along afterwards just because you are glad to have survived. In the meantime you will do nothing to protect yourself except troll around on internet forums.

    Well, bankruptcy no longer fully discharges your debts. That means when/if you are found civilly liable you will likely lose your home and your finances as well as starting to pay monthly for the rest of your life to those who sued you as well as your attorney. Did you know that defense in a civil suit can cost over $100,000? No money? No problem, defend yourself. If you can. And, your spouse can be held liable for YOUR debts as well through your marriage if you live in a community property state. Kiss your family harmony goodbye in any event.

    Criminal prosecution is slightly different. Yes, you can get a public defender appointed in your case if you can't afford an attorney. Our jails and prisons are full of folks who went that route. Here's the real kicker. Just because you were criminally prosecuted doesn't mean that you can't be civilly sued. And juries just love to vote against folks who are in prison at the time.

    Insurance is cheap. If you carry, you should have some.

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Post-Incident Statement Card

    I have this printed in my wallet. I'm also a member of the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Dear Officer: If I have given this to you, I have unfortunately had to do what was necessary to defend innocent life. I am willing to sign a criminal complaint against the perpetrators(s). I will point out witnesses and evidence.

    As you may have experienced yourself, this is a stressful and traumatic experience for me. Therefore, I wish to make no further statements until I have contacted an attorney and composed myself. I also do not consent to any searches. I will cooperate fully once I have consulted with an attorney and calmed down. As a lawfully armed citizen, I ask for the same courtesy that you would show a fellow officer who was involved in a similar situation.

    Thank-you. Printed on_____________
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  7. #21
    Member Array TH48's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    I have this printed in my wallet. I'm also a member of the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Dear Officer: If I have given this to you, I have unfortunately had to do what was necessary to defend innocent life. I am willing to sign a criminal complaint against the perpetrators(s). I will point out witnesses and evidence.

    As you may have experienced yourself, this is a stressful and traumatic experience for me. Therefore, I wish to make no further statements until I have contacted an attorney and composed myself. I also do not consent to any searches. I will cooperate fully once I have consulted with an attorney and calmed down. As a lawfully armed citizen, I ask for the same courtesy that you would show a fellow officer who was involved in a similar situation.

    Thank-you. Printed on_____________
    Great idea!
    To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them. Ė Richard Henry Lee 1788

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    I have this printed in my wallet. I'm also a member of the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Dear Officer: If I have given this to you, I have unfortunately had to do what was necessary to defend innocent life. I am willing to sign a criminal complaint against the perpetrators(s). I will point out witnesses and evidence.

    As you may have experienced yourself, this is a stressful and traumatic experience for me. Therefore, I wish to make no further statements until I have contacted an attorney and composed myself. I also do not consent to any searches. I will cooperate fully once I have consulted with an attorney and calmed down. As a lawfully armed citizen, I ask for the same courtesy that you would show a fellow officer who was involved in a similar situation.

    Thank-you. Printed on_____________
    As an attorney who is a member of the ACDL...

    Burn that card.

    Now.

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Would you care to elaborate?

    It's nothing more than the advice Masaad Ayoob, and others, have given out...put onto a piece of paper.

    Pilots use checklists, because humans forget things, especially while under stress.

    I'd rather shut my mouth and hand this card (or read it) to the first responding officer. It will also remind me to point out evidence, invoke my rights, refuse to consent to a search, etc.

    What's the issue?
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  10. #24
    Senior Member Array Rob P.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    As an attorney who is a member of the ACDL...

    Burn that card.

    Now.
    + whatever the cost of your defense is going to be.

    Seriously, that card makes several statements you DO NOT want to admit to. Nor it is legally sufficient to constitute an assertion of your rights. With that card you are voluntarily giving a written confession to the police, written prior to your acts, which describes your actions in taking the life of a human being, which is legally admissible to prove your GUILT yet contains NO facts which would exonerate you or describe the circumstances which required that you act out of fear for your life, and finally, does not stop the state from continuing to question you.

    Seriously stupid idea. Beyond that even. If you EVER have to act; sit down, shut up, and wait until you make bail to call your insurer to file a claim and request legal representation under your policy. The Public Defender can represent you through your bail hearing.

  11. #25
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Do I care to elaborate...

    No.

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...my-wallet.html
    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...76-post34.html

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...-must-see.html

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...ce-merged.html

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...neys-cops.html

    Been done before, so no. I don't care to elaborate any further.

    Oh, forget it.

    Use the card. Sign a confession while you are at it...

    Wait. That's what the card effectively is.

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Self defense is an affirmative legal defense. You are admitting you shot the guy, but arguing it was justified.

    Masaad argues against the "just shut up" approach, because it makes you look guilty, and the police need something to go on. Witnesses and evidence vanish unless you point it out. The card reminds you to do that, among other things.

    Oh...persons guilty of something don't volunteer to sign criminal complaints.

    We'll just have to agree to disagree.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  13. #27
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Thank you for the clarification on justification defenses.

    I didn't take notes on that when I went to law school because I was too busy with being hung over for my 1st year Criminal Law class (Glenfiditch is my friend...)

    ...But that's alright, because I seem to have picked it up in practice over the past few years doing criminal defense work.

    I like Ayoob's take on things, and executed correctly, it works; however, the card is a rather poor joke twisting his advice from simplicity to complexity.

    If you've bothered to read the links I posted, you'd see the numerous reasons I have for disagreeing with the card.

    You are entitled to have your opinion. You & others are also entitled to twist the advice Ayoob gives into complexity because you can't understand "Less Is More"

    As you will...

  14. #28
    Senior Member Array Tom357's Avatar
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    I have cards for two lawyers who have specific experience defending self-defense shooters, and who have the best records for successful defense in those situations. They also teach the review of pertinent laws in CC classes in my county.
    - Tom
    You have the power to donate life.

  15. #29
    Senior Member Array EvilMonk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    That's mighty helpful of you to make a statement to the police.

    In the legal community, we call that a confession.

    Lemme splain...

    Anything you say can and will be used against you. That's not just after you are read your rights, but at any time.

    You don't know what the police know. You don't know what they have been told.

    You may be confirming their information (you were involved somehow, you were the guy with the gun...) or outright providing the information that they didn't have in terms of details of the incident.

    If the cops are talking to you...you shouldn't be talking to them.

    Yes, yes...I know...

    It's a self defense incident, and you aren't a criminal...and my advice may be fine for the people I represent all the time...

    Whatever.

    If the cops are looking at you, it's not for any pleasant reason.

    Whatever you have to say to them can be said once you either shut up & lawyer up from the outset or go with Ayoob's advice of the whole "Officer, I'm the one who called, thank G0D you are here...he dropped a knife over that way and you want to talk to the guy in the red leather mini skirt & high heels because he saw the whole thing, and I don't feel comfortable saying more till I talk to an attorney..."

    Otherwise, you run the risk of rambling on and setting yourself up for more trouble than you can imagine.

    Less people get in trouble for shutting up than they do for talking.

    If you wait till you are under arrest to lawyer up, you waited to long.
    Hey, I'm not gonna bash you for helping out with "advice". Heck, I'm going to take it. I just figured that an immediate "Reader's Digest" version might be in my best interest, but if you advise otherwise (unofficially, I know...), then I will take it into strong consideration.

    Thanks for doing so!

    That which does not kill us leaves us broken and bleeding...

    Donít mess with the guy who can barely stand up. His remaining options for self-defense don't include your survival.

    Convenire Volui Spectatus

  16. #30
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    Thank you for the clarification on justification defenses.

    I didn't take notes on that when I went to law school because I was too busy with being hung over for my 1st year Criminal Law class (Glenfiditch is my friend...)

    ...But that's alright, because I seem to have picked it up in practice over the past few years doing criminal defense work.

    I like Ayoob's take on things, and executed correctly, it works; however, the card is a rather poor joke twisting his advice from simplicity to complexity.

    If you've bothered to read the links I posted, you'd see the numerous reasons I have for disagreeing with the card.

    You are entitled to have your opinion. You & others are also entitled to twist the advice Ayoob gives into complexity because you can't understand "Less Is More"

    As you will...
    Wow. You manage to be sarcastic, condescending, and just plain rude in a rather short post. Glad you're not my lawyer.

    To my mind, if you can remember Ayoob's advice while under the stress of a traumatic self-defense incident, then by all means, don't use the card or a checklist.

    However, if you are human like most of us, it might be helpful to have something to jog your memory. The basic elements are:

    1. He attacked me, I was in fear for my life
    2. I will sign a criminal complaint
    3. Evidence is over there
    4. Witnesses are over there
    5. I do not consent to any searches
    6. I do not wish to say anything further without an attorney

    That's a lot to remember while you are under stress, or maybe even wounded yourself.

    You have to balance the risk of a rouge DA using this card against you, versus the risk of forgetting an element of this advice.

    I see it as preparation, and any element of preparation can be used by a rouge DA against you as evidence of supposed "premeditation" - the fact that you carry a gun, a knife, use "killer" hollow points, attend classes to learn how to kill more efficiently, etc.

    The fact that you print this card, put a date on it, and then do not use it for many many years (hopefully never) should help argue against "premeditation."

    Folks can decide for themselves the risk/benefit ratio of this idea.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
    www.armedcitizensnetwork.org - member
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