What do you do for Post Draw Protection?

This is a discussion on What do you do for Post Draw Protection? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by 10thmtn Wow. You manage to be sarcastic, condescending, and just plain rude in a rather short post. Glad you're not my lawyer. ...

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Thread: What do you do for Post Draw Protection?

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    Wow. You manage to be sarcastic, condescending, and just plain rude in a rather short post. Glad you're not my lawyer.
    Me too.

    I'd have fired you as a client, and I hate the paperwork involved in dumping someone who's uncooperative, self destructive and ignorant.



    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    To my mind...
    Your first mistake is assuming you have a clue regarding what you are talking about.

    Moving on...

    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    if you can remember Ayoob's advice while under the stress of a traumatic self-defense incident, then by all means, don't use the card or a checklist.

    However, if you are human like most of us...
    I'm not human. I'm an attorney. I thought we had established I was one of the undead...

    However, in reference to other people who are merely human, and under a great deal of stress from the use of force incident, you may want to just assert your right to remain silent and your right to counsel, and not say or do anything that will negatively impact your case later.

    I haven't had a case yet were I was called in and was glad my client spoke a single word.

    I have had clients who thought they were helping themselves by making a statement to the police, including on case were my client was the victim, got a knife through his rib penetrating a lung, and after beating the hell out of the guy who attacked him, was questioned by the police after surgery while still loopy from the drugs...and was then charged with assault 1st.

    What part of "ANYTHING YOU SAY CAN AND WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU" is too complex for you to understand?

    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    it might be helpful to have something to jog your memory.

    The basic elements are:

    1. He attacked me, I was in fear for my life
    2. I will sign a criminal complaint
    3. Evidence is over there
    4. Witnesses are over there
    5. I do not consent to any searches
    6. I do not wish to say anything further without an attorney

    That's a lot to remember while you are under stress, or maybe even wounded yourself.
    If it's too much to think of under stress...

    Remain silent.

    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    You have to balance the risk of a rouge DA using this card against you, versus the risk of forgetting an element of this advice.

    I see it as preparation, and any element of preparation can be used by a rouge DA against you as evidence of supposed "premeditation" - the fact that you carry a gun, a knife, use "killer" hollow points, attend classes to learn how to kill more efficiently, etc.
    YOU see them as rogue DA's.

    THEY see you as a guy who shot someone, then ran your mouth to the police and/or gave them this card which said some BS about defending innocent life...and that doesn't match the story the police are telling them, or the details you talked about (you thought you didn't say anything...OOPS...)...

    I just assisted in disposing of a case in which the very issues you raised were brought up by the police.

    As part of disposing of it, I had a meeting with the DA that lasted about 1/2 hour were I explained the whole JHP issue, extra mags...yadda, yadda...2 of Ayoobs books were given to primary counsel and he argued points in them as well.

    Problem solved. Case dismissed. Client should be getting the gun back as soon as logistics of trasfering a firearm from the PD out of state to my state. FFL's and shipping fees, ectra...

    If he had that card, that would have probably thrown the DA a loop that the DA wouldn't have been comfortable with, and the outcome would have been worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    The fact that you print this card, put a date on it, and then do not use it for many many years (hopefully never) should help argue against "premeditation."

    Folks can decide for themselves the risk/benefit ratio of this idea.
    You base your arguments on this point on...what?

    I like Ayoob.

    It's the people who read a few of his articles and think they are experts on self defense, the law, and how to handle the matter in court that I absolutely loathe.

    Massad Ayoob has distilled this stuff down for people to be able to understand and use in BASIC format.

    That means you do not get creative or complex with his instructions.

    That means you are trained in legal first aid - not that you are a legal trauma surgon for what happens afterwards.

    If you think you have such a great understanding of this stuff, great.

    You do as you please...

    But consider this for a moment: What if you don't know what you don't know.

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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    What I DO know is that you cannot seem to discuss this issue without resorting to personal attacks and insults.

    That tells me all I need to know about you. It also casts a shadow over everything you say.

    Seems you cannot disagree without being disagreeable. Shame.

    You don't know me, or my background. You are making assumptions.

    Bye.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  4. #33
    Member Array 1980Maico440's Avatar
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    Thank you all for the opinions expressed here. If there was no point/counterpoint I doubt this forum would be of much use to me, regardless of the subject.
    I would also thank MitchellCT and other legal minds for their numerous responses (see prior thread referals in particular) elsewhere which I find concise and detailed suffiently for me to form my own opinion on this matter. I am also reminded (and humbled) regarding the value of approaching legal questions by engaging with a person who is trained and actively experienced in the legal field.
    This is a great forum and there are very good things here to consider. Thank you all.

    I won't stop racing when I get old, I will get old when I stop racing

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  5. #34
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post

    "Less Is More"
    INAL However, I with you on this.

    BTW, if you missed it, read:

    Defending the Self-Defense Case

    It's by defense lawyers for defense lawyers and my attorney had missed it and thought it was good.

    BTW, my lawyer also says no cards, no phone numbers on my person, etc -- and defiantly no retainers. I know his name. I can ask for the number, if/when I need it.

    In his opinion, preparation could be used by the other side (primarily in a civil case) to support a predisposition (or something like that in legalese) to shoot someone.

    Also, for those who want to say something at the scene, watch:

    YouTube - Don't Talk to Cops, Part 1

    and

    YouTube - Don't Talk to Cops, Part 2

    BTW2 -- Virginia's common law is good on the criminal court side of the issue -- few criminal case are brought and fewer lost, in a righteous shooting (e.g. true self defense w/o the shooter being part of the problem -- not defense of property), here in Virginia.

    It's the cost of defending/winning any subsequent suits that we need to do something about.

    BTW3 -- Last I looked, the firearms specific legal insurance only covered the criminal court defense.

    Is that still true?

    Can anyone give a reference to one that covers ant follow-on civil action?

    How about, general legal coverage insurance that would include civil case of a shooting?

    I know that my liability insurance excludes deliberate acts.
    Last edited by DaveH; October 14th, 2009 at 12:42 PM. Reason: spacing and correcting one "civil" to "criminal"
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    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

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  6. #35
    Ex Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    MitchellCT thank you for the insight. I think I will follow your advise, and call my lawyer have a sit down and SHUT MY MOUTH......and listen.. Folks this isnt about feelings, its about saving your butt for a second time. If a lawyer in the criminal defense area is offering advise you may want to listen.. Opinions on this subject do not matter, only the facts of how the law will be interpreted.

  7. #36
    Member Array 1980Maico440's Avatar
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    excellent reference, I particularly liked:
    "28. See Carswell v. Borough of Homestead, 381 F.3d 235, 243 (3rd Cir. 2004). The Carswell court also noted that “we must never allow the theoretical, sanitized world of our imagination to replace the dangerous and complex world that policemen face every day. What constitutes ‘reasonable’ action may seem quite different to someone facing a possible assailant than to someone analyzing the question at leisure.”"

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  8. #37
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    What I DO know is that you cannot seem to discuss this issue without resorting to personal attacks and insults.
    Being polite is something I can do; I simply see no need to do it.

    If I thought I had an opportunity to discuss this with you politely, I would.

    You seem to be firmly convinced you know what you are talking about, yet don't understand the basic information you have - then you appear to be expanding on that unsound foundation...

    Which leads to conversations like this:

    Attorney - "So...after reviewing the police report and the statements you made - "

    Client - "Statements? I didn't make any statements!?! I didn't tell the police anything!"

    Attorney - "Well. That's not entirely accurate...lets go to the tape here..."

    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    That tells me all I need to know about you.
    That I'm an arrogant, overbearing, insulting, uptight person who is firmly convinced I know this stuff better than you do?

    You'd be right.

    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    It also casts a shadow over everything you say.
    Good.

    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    Seems you cannot disagree without being disagreeable. Shame.
    Don't mistake unwillingness for lack of capibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    You don't know me, or my background. You are making assumptions.

    Bye.
    If your background does not involve a Juris Doctor degree, passing a bar exam and standing in front of a Judge with a hand raised taking an oath as a Commissioner of the Superion Court and Attorney (or similar)...

    I really don't care what your background is.

    If you've served in the military, thank you for your service.
    If you are or have been a police officer, the same.

    If you are someone who's shot someone, been through the whole process and came out cleared, congrats - but still, that is ONE experience.

    Unless you have a formal education in criminal law, and practical experience in handling criminal law from the defense side, you really don't have any business having your own opinion on this subject, or thinking beyond the absolute basics of what you've been taught by someone who does.

    (Did you come to your opinions because you took a class from someone beyond a basic CCW class...or were you just reading articles and the internet?)

    You cannot anticipate what will happen which will lead you to hurt someone.

    You can only plan for the aftermath in the most broad way possible.

    Is it possible to craft a situation were your card is the best option - yes.

    It's also possible that you can do like Joe Horn did at your house in South Boston and have the DA's office think you did the right thing, not charge you and send you on your way with a thank you note and replacement buckshot.

    Likely? No.

    Your emergency will probably not be the one you think it will be, and thus you must plan broadly, allowing for the most options as the situation evolves.

    The card doesn't do that.

    Shutting the mouth, or holding closely to Ayoob's advice does.

  9. #38
    Member Array Random's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    I have this printed in my wallet. I'm also a member of the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network.
    It's easy enough to check out their website, but why don't you tell us a little about the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network?

  10. #39
    Senior Member Array hayzor's Avatar
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    talking to LEO's not always a bad thing

    I disagree with the ďshut your mouth and never say a word to the copsĒ logic.
    If you just shot someone, it had better be black & white or you are in for a long ride regardless of what you do. If it is black & white, the responding officers will be able to see it from the circumstances pretty quickly. To make a short statement confirming what they see will put them in your corner and probably save you some hassle and possible trip downtown. By simply claiming that you arenít going to say anything until your lawyer shows up, tells that cop that you may have something to hide, and isnít going to make the cop your friend. However, it is your right. Note: this may vary if you live in a gun hostile city or state. I live in AZ. A gun friendly state.

    My CCW class was taught by a lawyer and he had the policy of never saying anything to the police. I recently took a defensive course and the legal/after shooting lectures were taught by a retired cop. The lectures from the retired LEO made more sense to me. The responding LEOís are going to piece together pretty quickly what happened in most SD shootings. I donít think you put yourself at more risk by some short statements describing what happened. This does not mean diarrhea of the mouth. Some control is needed. This should also be practiced to a degree for the SHTF situations.

    If you are in a very gray shooting, then you will probably be better off w/ your mouth shut. This also means you need some additional training in shoot/no shoot scenarios to keep yourself out of them.

  11. #40
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    You know it's grey...

    HOW?

    Everyone who pulls the trigger thinks they did the right thing at that moment. They are firmly convinced that it was the right thing to do...

    What if that knife you thought you saw was really a cell phone?
    What if you were front sight focused and didn't realize you shot as he turned putting a HST into the back of his head, and didn't see after he dropped, then told the police you shot him?

    So.

    Tell us.

    HOW do you know if it's grey?

  12. #41
    Member Array Ananael's Avatar
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    I recently found this but I have no idea if they are reputable. Has anyone dealt with them?

  13. #42
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Random View Post
    It's easy enough to check out their website, but why don't you tell us a little about the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network?
    It's access to training at reduced rates, an expert either free or reduced cost, and a $5,000 grant for defense costs to get an attorney on the job from the outset in the event you light someone up.

    That's a thumbnail sketch.

    OH, and you get the ever lovable me if you are in Connecticut...

  14. #43
    Member Array tmizzi's Avatar
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    MitchellCT ... thanks for the very direct and straightforward posts in this thread. You have obviously ruffled some feathers but anyone offended needs to get over it and understand what you are trying to advise.

    It amazes me the number of people who refuse to take the advice of counsel and just shut up. There is a time and a place for making your statements and that time is ONLY after you have secured an attorney and do as he instructs.
    Last edited by tmizzi; October 14th, 2009 at 04:32 PM.
    To all you current and former military ... thank you for your service! Let no one forget that the sacrifices you have made allow us the freedoms we enjoy.

  15. #44
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    Can anything you say before you're read your rights be admissible in court?
    Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776

    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
    -Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95

  16. #45
    Member Array tmizzi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob P. View Post
    Did you know that defense in a civil suit can cost over $100,000?
    Do you have any sources for this $100k amount? I have been doing a bunch of research lately on this topic and I can't find anything close to this number. I am really curious as I am trying to formulate and present a fact based study to the forum. Your backup to the $100k would be helpful. Thanks.
    To all you current and former military ... thank you for your service! Let no one forget that the sacrifices you have made allow us the freedoms we enjoy.

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