Seattle, WA: Unconstitutional Gun Ban

This is a discussion on Seattle, WA: Unconstitutional Gun Ban within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; http://www.cityofseattle.net/parks/P...earms_rule.pdf Local News | Gun ban at Seattle parks facilities goes into effect | Seattle Times Newspaper Gun ban at Seattle parks facilities goes into ...

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Thread: Seattle, WA: Unconstitutional Gun Ban

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    Member Array swatspyder's Avatar
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    Seattle, WA: Unconstitutional Gun Ban

    http://www.cityofseattle.net/parks/P...earms_rule.pdf

    Local News | Gun ban at Seattle parks facilities goes into effect | Seattle Times Newspaper

    Gun ban at Seattle parks facilities goes into effect

    A ban on guns in certain Seattle park facilities, specifically to protect children, went into effect today, according to the mayor's office.

    By Seattle Times staff

    A ban on guns in certain Seattle park facilities, specifically to protect children, went into effect today, according to the mayor's office.

    The move, which has drawn criticism including questions about its legality, affects hundreds of playgrounds, community centers, sports fields, swimming pools and water-play areas.

    "When children and families visit a Seattle Parks and Recreation pool, playground, community center or other facility, they are entitled to a reasonable expectation of safety," Mayor Greg Nickels said in a news release. "It's common sense to prohibit guns in places where kids and young adults play and learn."

    The gun ban, a new rule by Parks and Recreation, will be in effect only at facilities where signs have been posted, according to to the news release.

    Community centers will get the first signs, followed by pools, popular play areas, and ballfields. The mayor's office said all facilities should have the signs by Dec. 1.

    The first signs are expected to go up Friday at South Park Community Center, Garfield Community Center and Bitter Lake Community Center

    If someone with a gun enters one of the designated facilities, he or she will be asked by parks employees or Seattle police officers to leave. If the person won't leave, he or she could be cited or arrested for criminal trespass, according to the mayor's office.

    Nickels has argued that state law does not prohibit a property owner from imposing conditions on possessing firearms on his or her property.

    The city's position, Nickels has said, is that a municipal property owner such as Seattle may impose limits on firearms as a condition of entry or use of particular facilities, particularly those where children and youths are likely to be.

    State Attorney General Rob McKenna, however, has disagreed.

    In a statement released in mid-September, he said he has a history of working to protect children's safety, but "as Mayor Nickels is aware, the Attorney General's Office issued an opinion in 2008, which found that state law pre-empts local authority to adopt firearms regulations, unless specifically authorized by law."

    The opinion won't stop Nickels from invoking his ban, said Janelle Guthrie, with the AG's office. However, she said, the opinion holds the weight of law and could be used if the law is challenged, as gun advocates have vowed to do.

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    The facilities that will be covered under the rule include:

    • 26 community centers

    • Four environmental learning centers

    • 10 pools

    • 30 wading pools and water play areas

    • Two small-craft centers

    • Two specialized facilities (tennis center, performing arts center)

    • 139 playgrounds and play areas

    • 213 ballfields

    • Six late-night recreation sites

    • Three teen-life centers

    • 82 outdoor tennis and basketball courts

    • Two skate parks

    • Five golf courses

    • Nine swimming beaches

    Information from The Seattle Times archives is included in this report.


    Mayor Nickels thinks that Seattle public parks and centers is private property...

    Washington - Stories From The States - OpenCarry.org - Discussion Forum
    Last edited by swatspyder; October 15th, 2009 at 12:12 AM.

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    Member Array Horsetrader's Avatar
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    A similar ban in all the cities and counties of Southern California has FOREVER PROVEN that gun bans in neighborhood parks lead to shootings, robberies, rapes, and 24/7 drug dealing in the parks so affected and so posted. Step #2 of this road to insanity is to close the parks at dark ( that is the Progessive/Liberal way to protect the innocent from the new owners of the park after dark).

    Very effective crime fighting technique. ( now THAT is SARCASM !) So think of it this way: Seattle just gave its parks to the criminals. So be safe and stay home.
    "Improvise, adapt, overcome."

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    Member Array tabsr's Avatar
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    State and Federal Law

    In this new world, the state government is below the liberal city mayors.
    "Politicians and Bureaucrats, depend very much on the complicity of their victims, and like criminals, are flummoxed when we don't play the victim role."

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    VIP Member Array grady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horsetrader View Post
    A similar ban in all the cities and counties of Southern California has FOREVER PROVEN that gun bans in neighborhood parks lead to shootings, robberies, rapes, and 24/7 drug dealing in the parks so affected and so posted. Step #2 of this road to insanity is to close the parks at dark ( that is the Progessive/Liberal way to protect the innocent from the new owners of the park after dark).

    Very effective crime fighting technique. ( now THAT is SARCASM !) So think of it this way: Seattle just gave its parks to the criminals. So be safe and stay home.
    Yep. And don't forget the peaceful haven of Chicago.

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    Ex Member Array 12Rounds's Avatar
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    Whenever I hear "It's for the children", I know that I'm about to be B.S.'d in a major way.

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    Distinguished Member Array jumpwing's Avatar
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    This won't last for three very good reasons:

    1. The state AG has already addressed this issue and made it plain in no uncertain terms that it violates the Washington state constitution (state preemption)

    2. Mayor "Nickelbag" is on his way out; he already lost the last election

    3. The CCRKBA and SAF are both headquartered right here in Washington and have already warned they will challenge this in court (yes, Seattle will foot the bill for a losing case)
    "The flock sleep peaceably in their pasture at night because Sheepdogs stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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    Member Array gunfan's Avatar
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    As a resident of Washington State, I may "test" this "ordnance." I need the money! (The settlement should be substantial!)

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    Member Array KimBobTex's Avatar
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    Wow! I'm impressed / proud of the Seatle-ites' response to this ban. Read the 50+ "reader's comments" at the bottom of the article link. Only 2 or 3 from the anti's, the rest from pro 2A's venting their disgust & outrage. Pleasantly surprised ... didn't expect this landslide from the Pacific NW area. WAY TO GO people of Seatle! Stay focused & vigilant!

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    Senior Member Array Katana's Avatar
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    "Won't somebody please think about the children?!?"

    I am, I'm thinking that if someone wants to hurt, kidnap, rape, or murder a child in my presence, I've got a better chance to help stop it than if I could only use my bare hands. No, I'm not a LEO anymore, but there's no way I could sit by idly if something of that nature was happening. I'm of the mindset that people should mind their own business and just be a good witness, but not when it comes to children.

    I don't think I could live with myself if I did nothing in that situation, and I'd pray that if someone saw something like that happening to my own child, that they'd do the same thing.

    I hate when people say it's for the kids, because invariably, it almost always ends up having the opposite effect on them.

    I hope this is overturned as quickly as possible, "for the kids" of course.
    "Stand your ground, don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here!" - John Parker April 19th, 1775 Lexington, MA

    Μολών λαβέ!

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    A ban on guns in certain Seattle park facilities, specifically to protect children, went into effect today, according to the mayor's office.
    Can't see how "children" will be protected, when the adults charged with their protection would be forcibly disarmed. All this ordinance would do is to specifically disallow law-abiding, upstanding citizens from bringing along the means of protecting themselves on outings with their kids to the parks. Worse by far, they wouldn't be able to effectively protect their children, either, should the unthinkable occur.

    All the while, of course, criminals would continue to carry weapons as they've always done, ignoring the signs.

    The only "benefit" would be to reduce the likelihood of unintended discharges from upstanding citizens. Though, it would be interesting to know how many of these there have been in the past 20yrs. Quite possibly, in all of Seattle's parks and "children's" areas, it is zero or nearly so.

    Thus, it's almost certain to be an utterly ineffective ordinance. That is, if it sticks, which is unlikely, as others have noted.

    Pretty little signs, though. I wonder how much those cost. To say nothing of any lawsuit(s) to erase the ordinance from the books, and from the officers' minds. S.A.F. is going to have a little talk with the A.G. this week, I'm sure. God help them if they cuff-and-stuff the wrong people, before it's been erased off the books, as it'll cost the city/county that much more to defend itself against something that apparently won't stand state Constitutional muster (given preemption). Am glad the Attorney General has already weighed-in on such silly attempts to ignore the will of the people of the state.

    Isn't it amazing? Taking away the rights of the people can occur in a flash, yet halting the taking away of rights (such as restoring the right of the people to carry in Nat'l Parks, which is simply the act of refusing to continue criminalizing citizens) takes a year or more. It must be comforting to a politician to have such wonderfully pliable critical thinking skills.
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    Member Array larefugee's Avatar
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    Child snatchers now know where to go.

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    A ban on guns in certain Seattle park facilities, specifically to protect children, went into effect today, according to the mayor's office.

    God I hate this kind of thing! If the mayor just stoped to think really what he's done is open 527 criminal shooting gallery...of innocent people...

    I hope the it gets challenged right away !!!!!!
    Go for it gunfan you know your in the right even the AG'S office said it pre-empts local authority .......
    Better to have and not need then to need and not have!!!!
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    Distinguished Member Array nutz4utwo's Avatar
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    RCW 9.41.290: State preemption.

    RCW 9.41.290
    State preemption.

    The state of Washington hereby fully occupies and preempts the entire field of firearms regulation within the boundaries of the state, including the registration, licensing, possession, purchase, sale, acquisition, transfer, discharge, and transportation of firearms, or any other element relating to firearms or parts thereof, including ammunition and reloader components. Cities, towns, and counties or other municipalities may enact only those laws and ordinances relating to firearms that are specifically authorized by state law, as in RCW 9.41.300, and are consistent with this chapter. Such local ordinances shall have the same penalty as provided for by state law. Local laws and ordinances that are inconsistent with, more restrictive than, or exceed the requirements of state law shall not be enacted and are preempted and repealed, regardless of the nature of the code, charter, or home rule status of such city, town, county, or municipality.
    It does not get clearer than that! Ok check and balance system, do your thing!

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    Distinguished Member Array nutz4utwo's Avatar
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    I just read the PDF of the new rules. It is the first thing I have seen quote the "gun carrier 4.5 times more likely to be shot in an assault" idiot study from a few weeks ago!

    The Seattle Firearms Rule:

    1.10. Studies demonstrate that individuals possessing firearms are more likely to be shot in an assault than those who do not have a firearm. For example, a recent study conducted by University of Pennsylvania researchers conclude that armed individuals were four and one-half (4.5) times more likely to be shot. It is reasonable for the Department to conclude that more firearms in Parks facilities increases the likelihood that someone will be seriously injured.
    our thread on the study: http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...t-assault.html

    The best response to this study goes to Mr. Daddy Warcrimes:

    Those who own an inhaler are 4.5 times more likely to have an asthma attack.

    Correlation vs causation

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