October 20th, 2009 01:44 AM
Finally got pulled over...
I was heading to campus for a pre-service meeting, and hit a "borderline" yellow light and was pulled over -- this is the first time since having a carry license. Since I was heading to campus, I wasn't carrying, but I still volunteered my CHL (Oregon, it's a concealed handgun license), and had both hands on the wheel when the LEO stepped up to the window. He asked if I had the firearm on me, I said no, and he walked away. When he returned, I asked him politely what he would have done if I did have the gun on me -- he said that he would have taken it for the period of the stop, then returned it at the end. For some reason, and I suppose I never thought about it -- why in the world would an LEO take your firearm only to give it right back? What's the point? If someone planned to open fire on the police, you'd think it would be right when they walked up, or after they handed the firearm back because perhaps they're angry about a ticket ;-) -- it doesn't make sense to me to take it if they're just going to give it back 5 minutes later. Take the darn thing if there's a problem or you sense danger or are reasonably suspicious perhaps, but just to seize it for no real reason? Maybe someone can shed some light, my apologies if my comments are ignorant.
And I know this has been discussed a time or two, but I also don't understand how the police have a right to strip you of your firearm without cause or reason. The only reason this strikes my mind is because my wife and I were watching Forensic Files the other night late, and there was an on-duty LEO who was pulling women over, going up to their car, sitting inside and doing inappropriate things -- then, one woman fought back, injured him, and he killed her for whatever reason. Anyway, this just sort of put the thought in my mind that if an officer stripped someone of their firearm, then tried to pull something like this....I know, I know, perhaps I'm being a bit paranoid now, but cops are still people and you just never know. Nothing against any of our hard working LEO's out there -- please don't get me wrong. It just crossed my mind during the episode that an officer has the power and legal right to take our firearms...then we are essentially at their mercy.
Sorry for this long post! Up late, and just wanted to share my thoughts.
By the way, I feel like home here among folks who are gun friendly - ugh, I don't know a single person here in Eugene, OR who carries. It'd be great to have some personal comradeship.
It is utterly illogical to believe that passing laws to reduce gun violence will be successful when those who are commiting the gun violence do not obey the law.
October 20th, 2009 02:45 AM
I think it's a tough call. Police officers are the only people who are legally authorized to give us tickets, take us to prison, and otherwise treat us in ways that we wouldn't accept from other people. It's for the best of society -- but on an individual basis it can be very difficult for people to accept that another person has that kind of power over them.
Many people don't react well when that power is exerted -- both verbally and physically. I trust the people around me not to shoot me -- because they have no reason to. If I was a police officer, I might worry that they felt a reason to.
On the other hand, I've never heard of a person with a carry permit shooting a police officer at a traffic stop. I'm sure it's happened sometime, but it's not a regular thing. In light of that, it certainly feels like police ought to have faith in carry permit holders.
Only problem: having faith in people they don't know, is generally a great way for police to get hurt. Goes against a heck of a lot of training and good instinct.
In short: I don't like it, but I understand why they feel a need to do it. As long as it's done politely and respectfully, I'm reluctantly understanding and willing to see it from their point of view.
October 20th, 2009 03:29 AM
It may simply be dept. policy. In some cases a younger officer might feel more comfortable taking your weapon during the stop. It's probably taught at the academy as standard procedure. I never did unless the driver had a problem (attitude), but I went to the academy before CCW was legal in TX. If he is going to take it, I think he would unload it, before returning it. Removing the mag then ejecting the round in the chamber is a fairly safe operation, for most folks.
"Texas can make it without the United States, but the United States can't make it without Texas!".... Sam Houston
NRA Life Member
October 20th, 2009 03:56 AM
The phrase "... for my personal safety..." comes to mind.
One should never confuse good fortune with good training.
Illegitimus Non Carborundum.
In God we trust.
October 20th, 2009 04:27 AM
My wife has been asked to do a book signing in the near future there. If we make it, we'll be sure to look you up.
Originally Posted by Zach and Holly
I've been pulled over several times, and only once did the officer remove my weapon from the vehicle, take it back to his patrol car, unload it and the magazine, and hand it all back to me with a ticket.
That's exactly what the officer said to me about the ordeal. By all appearances, the State patrolman was relatively new to LE and his post. Was I surprised by all of this? Maybe a little bit since I had not had the experience before then with any of the other officers from different agencies that felt the need to pull me over and give me a talking to for one reason or another. On the other hand, it's somewhat to be expected that you will experience the disarming procedure from your friendly law enforcement official during the course of his/her duties sooner or later so long as you continue to assert your rights and carry in public.
The phrase "... for my personal safety..." comes to mind.
October 20th, 2009 05:16 AM
I think it has a lot to do with the mentality of the specific officer that happens to pull you over. For example, there are some lawmen out there who don't think anyone but them should be carrying guns and are anti-carry. It might have a bit to do with your locale as well. It could be a number of things. The "officer safety" explanation is what most officers would use if asked "Why?" but I'm sure there are underlying reasons.
The last time I was pulled over, the officer seemed quite aprehensive at first - very alert - ready. After I handed him my CHL it almost seemed as though a calmness came over him. He only asked where my pistol was. Most knowledgable LE officers know, generally speaking, that licensed individuals who carry are good guys. Ignorance may have a lot to do with cops who would strip a licensed person from their weapon for the duration of a stop. "God complex" could have something to do with it. There are some great cops out there, but many suffer from that complex. If I were a lawman, I would probably only ask for the driver's firearm if he seemed to be intoxicated, had an attitiude (like JB said), had warrants, or looked jumpy/froggy. More realistically though, I would want the driver to stay planted. The more compicated a stop gets, the more dangerous. More than anything, keeping things simple would seem to contribute the most to "officer safety." Disarming someone is serious and can be complex. Turn the dome light on, roll the windows down, keep the hands at 10 and 2, and don't move. That's what cops want you to do, so do it.
ZachandHolly, for the Forensic Files incident you mentioned: There are laws in some states - TX at least, that protect people from unlawful actions made by peace officers. Here's a piece of it (Some might find this shocking, but it is the law):
(b) The use of force against another is not justified:
(2) to resist an arrest or search that the actor knows is being made by a peace officer, or by a person acting in a peace officer's presence and at his direction, even though the arrest or search is unlawful, UNLESS the resistance is justified under Subsection (c);
(c) The use of force to resist and arrest or search IS JUSTIFIED:
(1) IF, before the actor offers any resistance, the peace officer (or person acting at his direction) uses or attempts to use greater force than necessary to make the arrest or search; and
(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the peace officer's (or other person's) use or attempted use of greater force than necessary.
My CHL instructor is a peace officer and this was one of the things he covered in class. I was reminded of it when you made your post.
Have a good week, everyone!
October 20th, 2009 05:59 AM
[ Removing the mag then ejecting the round in the chamber is a fairly safe operation, for most folks.[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately that doesn't mean ALL. I still remember back in 96,sitting cuffed in the patrol car while a Russellville, AR police officer attempted to unload my cocked and locked 1911 by pulling the trigger while trying to rack the slide, WITH THE GUN POINTED AT ME!!!!!! Not a rookie either he'd been on the force for about 5-6 years. Ever tried to get into the floorboards while cuffed? it's not fun. LOL
The really annoying thing is I broke no laws. I was visiting friends, driving home late in a beat up old car with Oklahoma tags, and a lot of Pagan bumperstickers. He decided I was suspicious, pulled me over for a non existant traffic violation, "failure to use a turn signal, which was still flashing a left turn when he pulled me over" Arrested on charges of transporting a firearm so he and EIGHT other cops could search my car for 4 hours before transporting me to the detention center. The officer admitted that he pulled me over for the reasons stated above, and the gun, this is before CCW laws, was transported legally under Arkansas's journey law. Sigh, I was cleared of all charges when I took it to court. Looking back, I should have sued, especially since I'm not mentioning a lot of the crap that occurred, but at the time, I was just glad it was all over.
October 20th, 2009 06:00 AM
Crime of ANY kind is "not a regular thing" among permit holders. That's the whole point of the background checks. A CCW cop shooting would be crowed from the rooftops by every anti-gun left-winger in the country.
Originally Posted by dnowell
Any LEO shot in the line of duty is a tragedy, but such a story would serve to help a political agenda. It's not outside the realm of possibilty, but it's also "possible" to get run over by a school bus on your way to claim the Powerball Lottery jackpot...
I heard a somewhat similar story from my brother-in-law about a friend of his. A former Illinois cop pulled him over (Ill is a non-carry, VERY restrictive state) and flipped out when he learned the guy had his gun on him, loaded.
The stop was here in MO, so the guy was legal to be carrying.
Long story short, a senior officer arrived, gave the newbie cop what-for, and returned the man's gun with an apology.
The views expressed above are the opinion of the poster and may or may not be total bunk.
Viewer discretion is advised.
October 20th, 2009 06:12 AM
So did he give you a ticket?
I could tell you some wicked stories from the times I've spent in Springfield/Eugene...but it would definitely have to be in a different forum! I'd love to hang out there again.
October 20th, 2009 06:45 AM
The funny part is they don't trust you with the gun, but if you tell him you don't have it they take your word for it.
October 20th, 2009 08:24 AM
Barney Fife! Yup, IMO you got pulled over by Barney Fife. I have no doubt, that if you would've had a weapon on you, he'd have done just what he said he would. Protect himself from a (none threat situation) for no other reason than, He can. Way to go Barney!
MO, the majority of LEO's and first responders out there are some of the finest folks around. But, like any other field, there are those "ELITIST" "Barney Fief" acting folks that think they're superior to others around them and they need to take full control over every aspect of a situation regardless of who's involved. It's the same mentality in just about any and all fields where folks are given control over their fellow man. IMO, it's abuse of the position and should be frowned on by all. In some cases, Officer's discretion is a recipe for abuse of power. It all depends on the character of the LEO or official you're dealing with.
"He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." – Luke 22:36
"If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." – Thomas Jefferson
October 20th, 2009 08:28 AM
This is such a load of "Pelosi"!!!!!
Originally Posted by Old Chief
If I intended the LEO harm, would I tell him I had a gun on me; or just blast him at the first opportunity? And has there ever been a LEO threatened much less shot by a lawful CCW??????
This is just a form of harassment IMHO.
October 20th, 2009 08:50 AM
I'm curious, do you have to notify if you're not carrying?
Don't believe what you hear and only half of what you see!
October 20th, 2009 08:51 AM
Originally Posted by F350
On July 13, 2008, Ashford Thompson shot a police officer four times in the head after he was pulled over for playing loud music. Thompson used a Kel-Tec P11 in the shooting. Thompson, who had a concealed handgun permit issued by Cuyahoga County and had received a certificate for completing a concealed-carry class, pled guilty to aggravated murder.
Source: “Man indicted in killing of Twinsburg officer,” Plain Dealer, July 22, 2008; “Ashford Thompon’s sentencing hearing set for Oct. 15 in police officer’s murder,” Plain Dealer, June 25, 2009; “Thompson Pleads Guilty In Miktarian Death,” AkronNewsNow.com, April 13, 2009.
There are other cases as well, but they are rare. To be certain, very few attacks on LEO's have been recorded by permit holders. But they do happen. As is so often repeated by many posters here, being a LEO does not automatically make you a "good guy". There are bad cops. The flip side of that truth is that a CCW/CHP/whatever permit also does not automatically make you a "good guy". If you want to stand on one side of the argument, you have to acknowledge the other. In my humble opinion, I think it is safe to say that the vast majority of LEO's are "good guys" and the vast majority of permit holders are "good guys", and I'm always willing to give the benefit of the doubt to both.
That is just my opinion, which when you add $20,000, will buy you a congressman.
October 20th, 2009 09:44 AM
first, I always preface my comments concerning these things, I was a CHL before LEO, been shooting since I was 5 years old, huge supporter of 2A.......
Originally Posted by F350
since you brought up your point, I have to say I arrested a person recently that had his CHL.....pulled a shotgun on people playing their music loud in a parking lot, so yes....licensed to carry folks do these things, now--not as often as non-licensed people but it happens
I would only disarm if the situation led me to it....meaning they displayed an attitude, if they were breaking the law more than just a traffic violation, or my 6th sense was going off (I never ignore that, I'm sure you don't either there in Iraq.....I bet you get the same voice in the back of your head at times).
I've only pulled over 1 CHL and had no problems, pre-LEO I got pulled over 3 times and never got disarmed and was a non-issue
Certified Glock Armorer
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Independence is declared; it must be maintained. Sam Houston-3/2/1836
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