This is a discussion on Guns in schools within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by gunthorp It's nearly impossible to debate someone who can conjure up any number of possible harmful situations, no matter how ridiculous or ...
Last edited by DaveH; October 21st, 2009 at 05:20 PM. Reason: typo
I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.
I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.
Veni, Vidi, Velcro
I think it should be legal. I know my wife would carry at the college she works at if it was legal. My other family members would carry at the schools they work at also. All the arguments for a kid getting mad and getting the gun away is far-fetched IMO. Nobody would know which teacher was or wasn't armed in the first place and some training should be mandatory above the CHL training for the teachers/admins to aid in this.
as for this....
what about when their kids walk outside down the street, in walmart, at mcdonalds, mall, theater, visiting other people's houses, church, I could go on and onI just simply don't want my kids around adults with guns, unless those adults are police officers.
just because someone is a LEO doesn't flip a switch and all of a sudden they are something really special, other citizens have the same mindset about saving innocent children too
I was a CHL for 4 years before becoming LEO and I have the same thoughts regarding these situations in school back then and now.
not too mention that schools are being studied by terrorists as evident by blueprints for schools in America found in other countries, We're going to stick our heads in the sand and have the mindset of worrying about a kid maybe getting a gun away from a teacher/admin instead of worrying about defensing against such attacks from kids or terrorists, even though kids can currently hurt people anyway with guns, knives, pens, pencils, propane tanks, pipe bombs, scissors, etc.
Certified Glock Armorer
not enough space for list, main gear: duty-G17, S&W 642 bug, 870, RRA AR-15; G30 off-duty
Independence is declared; it must be maintained. Sam Houston-3/2/1836
If loose gun laws are good for criminals why do criminals support gun control?
Explain to me how...taking weapons away from victims, maks fewer victims?
Utah is the only state that allows private citizens (parents, teachers, and admin) with CCW permits to CCW in any K-12 school.
Now please enlighten me on all of the gun incidents you can name in the UT schools....
Chicago has the toughest gun laws in the country and its school system is a complete disgrace with something like this...
508 Chicago School Students Shot In 16 Months
Jay Levine CHICAGO (CBS) ―
Five out of these seven students raised their hand when asked if they know a friend or relative who has been shot.
Twenty-five Chicago Public School students have been murdered this year. As shocking as that number is, there is another figure that's very disturbing as well: the number of students who have been shot in a 16-month period is enough to fill an elementary school - 508 students, according to school officials. CBS 2 Chief Correspondent Jay Levine asks why, and what is being done to stop it...
And the violence goes on...I guess those gun laws really work?
"That I cannot do."
"Give this to, uh, Clemenza. I want reliable people, people who aren't going to be carried away. After all we're not murderers in spite of what this undertaker thinks."
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member
Forget that we have a right to own and carry guns; it's all too apparent that many people don't care. They're more interested in the "greater good", which cannot coexist with an individual right... but that's a discussion for another thread. If we must argue this "right" based on "greater good" principles, and we remove emotion from the equation, then it all boils down to the same thing that all of life's activities boil down to... Risk Management.
Everyone is faced every day with risk management decisions. I pilot airplanes, ride motorcycles, and shoot/carry guns, so I'm faced with special risk management decisions of my own. Many people would consider my activities extremely dangerous and a ridiculous risk on my life, and it would not be hard for them to make valid arguments to support why they feel this way. What they're really saying, however, is that they prefer to live with a more conservative risk management policy and they don't understand why anyone would do otherwise.
Different people have different levels of risk they're willing to take, which is fine, but people are often misguided by an incomplete risk management picture... and that's where the logic behind anti-gun sentiment lies (again, assuming we've removed the emotion that most drives the anti-gun argument).
There is risk involved just by the presence of a firearm. Parents are extremely protective of their children (I'm a parent of 3 grade-school children) and trusting anyone else with their children is difficult to swallow. Add those two things together and it's not hard to understand why someone would feel that the risk of the presence of a firearm in an environment where their children are away from them for so many hours of so many days is disconcerting.
The problem is that anti-gun people do not consider all types of risk, but only the risk of the presence of the firearm. This risk is based mostly on emotion and wild imagination, though there are past news stories of accidental/negligent discharges and other extremely rare incidents to support their argument.
If people would consider both the risks of having a firearm present and the risks of not having one present, using factual historical data, without emotion, they may very well change their opinion. If I recall correctly, this is what John Stossel discovered when he did his 20/20 special on guns and crime. It would be a long uphill battle to get that to happen, but I think non-emotion-driven gun education in schools would be an excellent place to start.
The bottom line is there's a perception problem. Guns are most often portrayed in a very negative light, causing people to view the mere presence of a gun as extremely high-risk, ignoring the very real benefits and very real risk of not having one. Since most people don't have an extremely-high risk management policy, the logical conclusion is that guns should not be present.
The only issue I have with CC in schools is who is allowed. Without further training I am not sure that those with permits in my state I want in a gunfight anywhere!! In KS it is an 8 hour class, of that class most is "You do not want to shoot some one; here is what could happen if you do; these are the psrts of the gun; the KS law that allows CC of a handgun and range test 18 out of 25 in the bowling pin shape on the target. I would want to see additional training of those allowed to CC in schools for a shot no shot and shooting in a crowd. While I am at it; maybe that should be part of the class for everbody!!
I teach Hunter Safety in my classroom. I bring all kinds of guns in! When I'm teaching math, they are locked in the principal's office, and at night they go home with me.
As for CC in the classroom. Love to see it.... I don't think it will ever happen.
College....it will happen eventualy.
"Whether it's a football game or an IED attack, you play EXACTLY how your practice."
"Put your trust in God, and keep your powder dry." ~Oliver Cromwell
Well the sad fact is you have these liberal teachers unions and the school districts anti mindset ,and you get what we got. Stupid laws!!!
I have told my school age kids if ever the school goes into a lockdown they are to immediatly get out. This includes bailing out of second story windows into bushes or whatever. They will be alive, and any fool/sheeple who remain will quite possibly become cannon fodder. So Be It.
"To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic." Ted Nugent
If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.
Washington didn't use his freedom of speech to defeat the British, He shot them!
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy." -- Ernest Benn
Here in OH we finally can have CC when dropping kids off, but not in schools. I used to carefully ignore this, but since I am now on the school board, the weapon stays in the car.
My daughter has a new 6th grade teacher this year, mid-20s and married. My daughter found out from talking with her that she has her CCW, but of course cannot carry in the school. Real shame!
Yes, that is a shame that responsible, educated, certified individuals - some models of our society - are criminalized for best preparations for the defense of themselves and their charges, our kids.
There are some excellent posts in this thread. IMO, all teachers who have a permit should carry and post-secondary students, with some qualifications more than a permit, too. That should give the BG's pause if they are angry at an ex-lover, rival, the world. Gun-free zones
Making it a felony to bring a gun to work or study at school is a stupid law that I hope we as a society soon can repeal.
After Va Tech, those who beleive otherwise are hiding their heads in the sand.
-Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
Now, back to your regularly scheduled program.
"Don't hit a man if you can possibly avoid it; but if you do hit him, put him to sleep." - Theodore Roosevelt
If you are not willing to stand behind our Troops, feel free to stand in front of them!
Personally, I'm in the middle ground on this issue. I feel that teachers should be able to carry to protect the students, BUT, should have more training than a simple CCW requires. In this part of the country that's not really an issue, Back when I was in school, both High school and college, about half of my male instructors were either retired military or police. So the training was already there. So my position is this, Teachers with say, CLEET certification or similar level of training "Military experience for example" Definately, Students in high school no, students in college yes, on campus at the very least if not in the classrooms.
In Utah CCW is allowed in all public schools from Kindergarten to University. I have no problem with it. As previously stated, a school setting is no different from a mall, fair, or a sporting event with lots of people around.
Not that I want my child to die, but I would rather have my child killed in the crossfire that brings down the BG than one of the masses killed by the BG as he waits for any opposition. How many died at VT? How long did it go on? When the BG is stopped cold by a CCW civilian (including OFF duty LEO), we don't know how many would have been killed, but isn't that a better scenario?
The issue of a child getting hold of the gun is total and complete nonsense. If the gun is carried ON person in a CONCEALED manner, first, no one knows it is there. Second, even if they know they still will have a VERY difficult time getting it from the CCW person.
IF this is a concern, then require the Blackhawk Serpa holster that locks the gun in place until the locking mechanism is released with a proper grip on the gun.
"When seconds count, the police are only minutes away." * "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight."
I feel that guns make for safer schools. Remove the gun free zones and everyone's safer because of it... we're beginning to see the effects of gun free zones... people are defenseless until the police arrive, and that's usually after the fact. (Broad terms I know).
I'll disagree that simply being in the military is reason enough to consider training complete... I was in the military (USAF from 88-98) and was proficient enough to qualify expert with: M-16 (training every 3 years), .38 revolver (training every 2 years), and 9mm (training every 3 years)...
I've been over to Iraq and Afghanistan as a contractor and have personally seen how some of USAF reservists shoot... and they couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.
Training is a good thing and I don't see that it should be eliminated but just accepting that someone was in the military doesn't mean that they're experts. Hope this doesn't offend anyone.