Guns in schools - Page 3

Guns in schools

This is a discussion on Guns in schools within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Leftist, would-be dictators have spent decades working to disarm the American people for one reason only--the impossibility of enslaving an armed public. Obama can hardly ...

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  1. #31
    Member Array OLDPUPPYMAX's Avatar
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    Leftist, would-be dictators have spent decades working to disarm the American people for one reason only--the impossibility of enslaving an armed public. Obama can hardly announce the federal confiscation of all private property and elimination of Constitutional rights to one hundred and fifty million Americans equipped with Glocks, Winchesters and Colts! This is why the twenty thousand bits of gun legislation currently in effect have done nothing to prevent criminals from obtaining firearms. Such is simply not the real intent of this mind boggling collection of political tripe. Our imperial, ruling class is concerned about law abiding citizens--actual Americans with guns, not gang members. So whether it be the safety of our school children of the "alarming" number of gun related suicides, any excuse to interfere with the right of honest people to keep and bear arms is immediately embraced.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Array unloved's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OLDPUPPYMAX View Post
    any excuse to interfere with the right of honest people to keep and bear arms is immediately embraced.
    Sadly, many who claim to be patriots and RKBA supporters (including quite a few members of this forum, and other firearms forums) are frighteningly eager to embrace such interference.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneshot View Post
    I have told my school age kids if ever the school goes into a lockdown they are to immediatly get out. This includes bailing out of second story windows into bushes or whatever. They will be alive, and any fool/sheeple who remain will quite possibly become cannon fodder. So Be It.
    Good advise so long as the school hasn't put bars on the windows to "protect" the children.

    When I was in high school, to the best of my knowledge, we had multiple stabbings with pens, pencils, and yes even a tire gauge in auto shop. That's not counting the many threats and brandishing that happen, or the cops on campus who never seemed to find the main drug dealers even when they were given their names, locker numbers, class schedules, and home addresses. We lucked out and any shootings near the school tended to happen after hours in the street next to the school.

    I wish my teacher back then were CC...at least I would have been more comfortable eating my lunch. As it was, I ate my lunch with my back to a concrete wall and always sat in the back of the class with NO ONE behind me.

    I already had one classmate bring in a recording of him and his friends dismembering a girl while raping her. And yes he and his friends are currently rotting in prison.
    Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws... serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man - Cesare Beccaria

  4. #34
    Member Array mamakennedy's Avatar
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    I was reading through the Idaho Statutes today and did a double take on 18-3302D

    Here is an exception for CC on school grounds during school activities:

    (f) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 18-3302C, Idaho Code, a
    person or an employee of the school or school district who is authorized
    to carry a firearm with the permission of the board of trustees of the
    school district or the governing board.


    I doubt they would grant the exception, but it is possible.
    Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws... serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man - Cesare Beccaria

  5. #35
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    We have a school in NW TX that allow staft with a CCL to carry

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by scorpion12 View Post
    I feel that guns make for safer schools. Remove the gun free zones and everyone's safer because of it... we're beginning to see the effects of gun free zones... people are defenseless until the police arrive, and that's usually after the fact. (Broad terms I know).


    I'll disagree that simply being in the military is reason enough to consider training complete... I was in the military (USAF from 88-98) and was proficient enough to qualify expert with: M-16 (training every 3 years), .38 revolver (training every 2 years), and 9mm (training every 3 years)...

    I've been over to Iraq and Afghanistan as a contractor and have personally seen how some of USAF reservists shoot... and they couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.

    Training is a good thing and I don't see that it should be eliminated but just accepting that someone was in the military doesn't mean that they're experts. Hope this doesn't offend anyone.
    I was military as well. I've seen a lot of people who couldn't shoot. At basic training the only way some people could graduate is by having a drill sergeant shoot their targets.

    I don't feel that giving a gun to somebody and saying you need to carry this or shoot this is a good idea. The people that should be carrying guns in school should be the same people who would carry everyday. The ones that in their free time go to the range and shoot because they want to. It's always going to be a bad idea to give a gun to somebody who doesn't care to have it.
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  7. #37
    Senior Member Array Rob P.'s Avatar
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    The argument is NOT baseless. There are valid points to be made for not allowing guns on school campuses.

    For instance, how many of us have seen those guys at the range who spray and pray and think that they are real "shootists?" Do you want them to be the ones with guns when the bad guy comes calling at your kids' school?

    Or how about the neighbor kid on your block who has no self control. Yeah, he's fine most of the time but there's that occasional "w t f*" moment where he does things that are totally wacko. How about when HE finds out that one of his teachers has a gun in her purse? Or the gym teacher who leaves his EDC in the locker room while on the field with the class? I'm talking about the kid who always gives in to temptation (and guns are a BIG temptation to most normal people) so are you going to trust him to "not touch?"

    Or the "quiet professor" type who just bought a new <insert fancy new gun here> and is showing it to the other "gun guy" teachers in the teachers' lounge and has an ND that goes through the wall into the cafeteria at lunch?

    The fear of guns on campus is real because there are too many people out there who are occasionally reckless. Training and minimum stds would be a big help but you can't train attitude when it's just not there in the first place.

    And, to put it into perspective, there are people on THIS FORUM whom I would not trust to have a gun in a school. Mostly because I wouldn't want to go to the range with these people. I'll bet that if you think on it a bit you'd agree with me on this.

    Mostly this is because guns are no longer a part of everyday life. As a result, guns are "toys" or "prizes" to most people because most of us are not reallyaware of the destructive power in them. Thus, the argument can be made that these "things" have no place on campus because the people who would carry them cannot be trusted with them due to the potential for recklessness and/or carelessness.

    There are counter arguments for each of these points. However, the world being as it is today, these arguments take a backseat to the main argument. That being that saving one life is worth all the other restrictions even at the risk that one remote incident could kill several. The odds favor the restrictions.

  8. #38
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  9. #39
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    only if the teacher had the type of training a local law office has with his weapon would i agree with this. to be honest kids in high school do not need to carry. collage if you have your carry permit then they should be allowed. but with very strict guidelines to this. School is a place of education yes. And gun education is very important but i do think that my generation or young tend to use guns a cool symbol over getting the proper education. I know to many friends who ccw with out permit or ever really had training or any proper use tech they just carry it in the belt to look cool.
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  10. #40
    VIP Member Array edr9x23super's Avatar
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    All you need to do is point them to the Israeli example; many years ago, terrorists began attacking Israeli schools, so the Israelis began arming themselves. Now there are teachers and administrators who pack weapons in the schools and they know how to use them. The result:

    You don't hear about a whole lot of Israeli schools being shot up by anyone anymore......

    And I don't buy the argument that "only police officers" are the most qualified gun handlers, either. I can outshoot 95% of the cops on the street at any level right now hands down, and all the time e are hearing or seeing a video about some LEO that had an AD and ended up with a bullet through the foot or something like that. So, if the police have the same malfunctions that we do, then why should they be allowed to carry guns in our schools either? What makes them so special? Eventually, using the kind of logic the posters use, no law-abiding citizen or LEO will ever be safe enough to carry any kind of firearm for self-defense. Which leaves only the criminals to possess weapons......
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

  11. #41
    Distinguished Member Array tiwee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edr9x23super View Post
    All you need to do is point them to the Israeli example; many years ago, terrorists began attacking Israeli schools, so the Israelis began arming themselves. Now there are teachers and administrators who pack weapons in the schools and they know how to use them. The result:

    You don't hear about a whole lot of Israeli schools being shot up by anyone anymore......

    And I don't buy the argument that "only police officers" are the most qualified gun handlers, either. I can outshoot 95% of the cops on the street at any level right now hands down, and all the time e are hearing or seeing a video about some LEO that had an AD and ended up with a bullet through the foot or something like that. So, if the police have the same malfunctions that we do, then why should they be allowed to carry guns in our schools either? What makes them so special? Eventually, using the kind of logic the posters use, no law-abiding citizen or LEO will ever be safe enough to carry any kind of firearm for self-defense. Which leaves only the criminals to possess weapons......
    Exactly. +1

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by russ1986 View Post
    only if the teacher had the type of training a local law office has with his weapon would i agree with this.
    Here we go again.

    The "I'm pro-2A, BUT...."

    Voicing all the arguments that the Gun Control crowd spews.

    All the arguments for not carrying in schools/ gun shops/ gun shows are exactly the same as those the hoplophobic use for restricting carry in the crazy patchwork quilt of no guns in/on/at "X" -- e.g., airport parking lots, airport terminals, any public building, any venue that charges admission, bars, buses, churches, colleges, concerts, funeral, libraries, parades, parks, protest, public gathering, road side rest areas, sport events, stadiums, trains, to name a few.

    However, there is no evidence that there is any higher rate of gun related problems in State "a", which allows legal carry in one of these places/events than there is in State "b", which denies legal carry in one of these places/events.

    In addition, those States which have the most of this "but not here" restrictions nonsense are the ones where the antis have lost the battle to ban out right or extremely restrict carry and now they are fighting a rear guard action to make it as logistically hard as they can for us to avoid run afoul of the law.

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  13. #43
    Senior Member Array unloved's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    Here we go again.

    The "I'm pro-2A, BUT...."

    Voicing all the arguments that the Gun Control crowd spews.

    All the arguments for not carrying in schools/ gun shops/ gun shows are exactly the same as those the hoplophobic use for restricting carry in the crazy patchwork quilt of no guns in/on/at "X" -- e.g., airport parking lots, airport terminals, any public building, any venue that charges admission, bars, buses, churches, colleges, concerts, funeral, libraries, parades, parks, protest, public gathering, road side rest areas, sport events, stadiums, trains, to name a few.

    However, there is no evidence that there is any higher rate of gun related problems in State "a", which allows legal carry in one of these places/events than there is in State "b", which denies legal carry in one of these places/events.

    In addition, those States which have the most of this "but not here" restrictions nonsense are the ones where the antis have lost the battle to ban out right or extremely restrict carry and now they are fighting a rear guard action to make it as logistically hard as they can for us to avoid run afoul of the law.

    Exactly DaveH.

    Quote Originally Posted by unloved View Post
    Sadly, many who claim to be patriots and RKBA supporters (including quite a few members of this forum, and other firearms forums) are frighteningly eager to embrace such interference.

  14. #44
    Member Array Jamie B's Avatar
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    We probably should delinate between K~12 and colleges.

    In my heart, I would like to be able to carry in my kid's K~12 school. Logically, 98% of the folks in my OH CCW class 5 years ago made me shiver in fear - they were very inexperienced, and were very devoid of any common sense. I would not want any of those bozos carrying in my kid's school.

    Maybe the best way to handle the situation for K~12 is to have a list of CCW individuals approved by the school administrators and school board. However, most teachers and administrators are of liberal pursuasion, so the odds of them buying in are probably slim to none.

    I don't know the right answer here............

    Jamie

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob P. View Post
    The argument is NOT baseless. There are valid points to be made for not allowing guns on school campuses.

    For instance, how many of us have seen those guys at the range who spray and pray and think that they are real "shootists?" Do you want them to be the ones with guns when the bad guy comes calling at your kids' school?

    Or how about the neighbor kid on your block who has no self control. Yeah, he's fine most of the time but there's that occasional "w t f*" moment where he does things that are totally wacko. How about when HE finds out that one of his teachers has a gun in her purse? Or the gym teacher who leaves his EDC in the locker room while on the field with the class? I'm talking about the kid who always gives in to temptation (and guns are a BIG temptation to most normal people) so are you going to trust him to "not touch?"

    Or the "quiet professor" type who just bought a new <insert fancy new gun here> and is showing it to the other "gun guy" teachers in the teachers' lounge and has an ND that goes through the wall into the cafeteria at lunch?

    The fear of guns on campus is real because there are too many people out there who are occasionally reckless. Training and minimum stds would be a big help but you can't train attitude when it's just not there in the first place.

    And, to put it into perspective, there are people on THIS FORUM whom I would not trust to have a gun in a school. Mostly because I wouldn't want to go to the range with these people. I'll bet that if you think on it a bit you'd agree with me on this.

    Mostly this is because guns are no longer a part of everyday life. As a result, guns are "toys" or "prizes" to most people because most of us are not reallyaware of the destructive power in them. Thus, the argument can be made that these "things" have no place on campus because the people who would carry them cannot be trusted with them due to the potential for recklessness and/or carelessness.

    There are counter arguments for each of these points. However, the world being as it is today, these arguments take a backseat to the main argument. That being that saving one life is worth all the other restrictions even at the risk that one remote incident could kill several. The odds favor the restrictions.
    The only problem with this argument is that the state(s) feel that people with a CHL are able/capable of carring one most of the time. With your argument you are negating having a CHL at all. If CHL carriers are able to carry them into a crowed mall, sporting event, meeting, etc, there is a chance that kids are present and would be in the same danger.

    All that said, I would have no problem with the states including a provision for additional training for the privilage of carrying in a school.

    Just my $0.02 worth anyway....
    Andy
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    When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson

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