Interesting Question Concerning Reciprocity

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    Question Interesting Question Concerning Reciprocity

    Forum Member Josh had an interesting comment pop up in his poll concerning having multiple state permits.
    I thought that maybe it would make an interesting brand new thread.

    I am BEST LEGAL GUESSING that if your Home State "License To Carry A Firearm" is temporarily revoked (for whatever reason) that you could NOT continue to legally carry a firearm in your Home State (following a Home State License revocation) even though you had OTHER valid Carry Permits from other additional States that have "permit reciprocity" with your Home State.

    Example: If I were living in PA. & had my PA. L.T.C. temporarily revoked...I could not continue to legally carry in the State Of Pennsylvania even though I had an additional Valid FLORIDA License To Carry....that was (under normal circumstances) recognized and Valid in Pennsylvania.

    I am Best Guessing that when Pennsylvania took away a Primary Home State Pennsylvania LTC that you have then lost your "right" to carry a firearm in Pennsylvania...regardless of how many other or multiple various State LTCs you had that were recognized in Pennsylvania.

    Would that be a correct assumption?


    Your Thoughts?

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    Senior Member Array Ride4TheBrand's Avatar
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    Good question! I'll just wait here for the answers while others do the research ;)
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    QK, it is an interesting question and my response to 4my son's question is below.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4my son
    That sounds awesome, But would it hold up in court, I'm just playing devils advocate here. Not trying to say that you guys are wrong. Just wondering if their is any legal precedent on this.

    It sounds great, and I would do it in a heartbeat too. Probably will anyway.
    In some states it would be a problem. For example Arizona does not accept Utah non-resident permit for Arizona residents. But in Alabama there is no such stipulation. I don't even need to have an Alabama permit the Utah would do. There is no need to have an Alabama permit to get the Utah NR. There are people who have Utah non-resident whose state does not issue CCW permits or whose state is may issue and chooses not to. That gives them the right to carry in other states, but maybe not their own.

    To get the NH non-resident permit you have to send in a copy of your permit from your home state. But after the NH permit is issued there is no need to retain the one in the home state as far as I can determine.
    _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

    New Material

    I'm not a lawyer, but unless your state as a regulation that states another state's non-resident permit is not acceptable for residents of that state how could they reasonably expect you not to make use of the other state's permit. First, without a regulation what would be the legal basis. Second, the other state issued the permit how can your state say that it is not valid? Third, in reality you could just give up our home state CCW permit and only have the non-resident permit if your state has no regulation stating that the NR is not acceptable for residents of your home state. The only one I have seen that states that is Arizona. They accept non-resident permits for non-residents only. I'm sure that some prosecutor could come up with something to use, but first of all there would have to be a need to come up with it. Unless the LE in your area is so paranoid and underworked that they can afford to be following you around to check on you there would be no need for the question to come up unless there was another incident. If they followed you around and checked a couple of times a good lawyer could file a harrassment suit and that would get them off your back.

    All of this sounds pretty far fetched I'm sure, but with the way some states treat concealed carriers it may not be.
    George

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    Distinguished Member Array jarhead79's Avatar
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    My "guess"...

    Those other states haven't caught wind of what happened to cause the 'suspension'.
    www.ubgholsters.com short wait times. Use 'defensivecarry' as a coupon code for a discount to your order.

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    Distinguished Member Array LenS's Avatar
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    IIRC, part of the stipulation with the FL NR CCW is to notify them if any other CCW permit is pulled on you. I could be wrong, but I thought I read this on the FL website somewhere recently.

    Around here, if they find other permits when they search your house (which they will do), they will no doubt confiscate them too.

    There is no easy way around these type problems.

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    Superficially a fix seems easy. Practically speaking I fear legally we'd be SOL, if trying to do a ''work-around''.

    Add to this - if during the process of trying to be reinstated with home state permit, it is found we are ''trying it on'' - could be a case of no more permits anywhere, ever.

    Be useful to hear a legal eagle's take on this.
    Chris - P95
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    GA is another state...

    ...that does not recognize non-resident permits for GA residents. The only way for GA residents to legally carry in GA is to get a GA permit.

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    VIP Member Array SammyIamToday's Avatar
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    I'm guessing this would work maybe one time and after that would be fixed with some new laws. Be interesting to here a lawyer say something about it.

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    My take on this would be that your other permits would not be valid in your home state. By pulling your permit, they are saying "you can't carry here". By trying to use another permit you are saying "Oh, yeah? What about this?"

    Not sure that would fly. Just my opinion.
    eschew obfuscation

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    Unhappy

    I don't even want to Contemplate what a person needs to do to
    have their PA LTC revoked.

    2004 Firearm Record Info by County- (latest avail.)

    http://www.psp.state.pa.us/psp/lib/p...04_County_.pdf

    My (small)County issued over 700 licenses , and only revoked 4
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    Member Array nitrogen's Avatar
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    Well, I asked a lawyer.

    This comes from Charles Cotton, the admin at http://www.texaschlforum.com so it only applies to Texas, Check your own state.


    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Cotton - texaschlforum.com
    ...
    As long as the person has a CHL from a state that is recognized in Texas (full reciprocity or unilateral recognition), I don't see how he/she could be prosecuted for violation of TPC 46.02.

    Some facts could change this opinion:

    1) Issuance of a restraining order or protective order (federal law);
    2) Conviction of a felony (Texas and federal law);
    3) Automatic suspension or revocation of the other state's CHL upon suspension of the Texas CHL (Texas law).

    Numbers 1 & 2 would not make prosecution under TPC 46.02 possible, but the person could be charged under federal law for No. 1, or in the case of No. 2, under Texas law for felon in possession.

    Good question! Be careful about posting this in another forum, as this applies only to my interpretation of Texas law.

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    Member Array vzwnnj's Avatar
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    I think doing that you would run the risk of going to jail at worst...fined at best

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    Very simple

    Same as dmv rules


    IF your home state gets removed u may NO LONGER CARRY in that state. This does not affect ANY OTHER STATE.

    Case in pt I know someone because of DUI who's unable to drive in his home state but could drive legally in 49 other states (since his new state issued him drive license).

    In most states you also cant get another state CCW for your homestate (having a FL CCW in PA, etc)

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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter
    Forum Member Josh had an interesting comment pop up in his poll concerning having multiple state permits.
    I thought that maybe it would make an interesting brand new thread.

    I am BEST LEGAL GUESSING that if your Home State "License To Carry A Firearm" is temporarily revoked (for whatever reason) that you could NOT continue to legally carry a firearm in your Home State (following a Home State License revocation) even though you had OTHER valid Carry Permits from other additional States that have "permit reciprocity" with your Home State.

    Example: If I were living in PA. & had my PA. L.T.C. temporarily revoked...I could not continue to legally carry in the State Of Pennsylvania even though I had an additional Valid FLORIDA License To Carry....that was (under normal circumstances) recognized and Valid in Pennsylvania.

    I am Best Guessing that when Pennsylvania took away a Primary Home State Pennsylvania LTC that you have then lost your "right" to carry a firearm in Pennsylvania...regardless of how many other or multiple various State LTCs you had that were recognized in Pennsylvania.

    Would that be a correct assumption?


    Your Thoughts?
    Interesting question indeed. On the PA State Attorney General's site, I found the text of the reciprocity agreement with Florida, which states that:

    RECIPROCITY AGREEMENT

    This Reciprocity Agreement by and between the State of Florida by and through the Florida Department of State, Division of Licensing, and the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania by and through the Office of Attorney General.

    WHEREAS, the purpose of this Reciprocity Agreement is to extend reciprocal concealed firearm carry permit/license privileges to the citizens of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania and the State of Florida,

    WHEREAS, the respective state offices are authorized by statute to enter into this Reciprocity Agreement,

    WHEREAS, in consideration of the matters described herein, and of the mutual benefits and obligations set forth in this Reciprocity Agreement, the Parties hereby agree and covenant as follows:

    The State of Florida will recognize valid Pennsylvania permits to carry concealed firearms by valid Pennsylvania permit holders while said permit holders are present in the State of Florida.


    The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania will recognize valid Florida licenses to carry concealed firearms by valid Florida permit holders while said permit holders are present in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.


    This Reciprocity Agreement applies only to the carrying of firearms as defined and authorized by the applicable statutes of Pennsylvania by valid license/permit holders from the respective states and not to any other types of weapons.


    The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania and the State of Florida will inform each other of any changes in their respective carrying of concealed weapons statutes that may affect the eligibility of the recognition granted by each state.


    The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania and the State of Florida will each provide the other with copies of their current laws regarding concealed weapons and firearm carry licenses/permits.


    The State of Florida will provide twenty-four hour verification of the authenticity and status of Florida licenses. Instructions regarding the method of verification of a Florida concealed handgun permit/license will be provided as soon as the method is established.


    This Reciprocity Agreement is contingent upon and shall only remain effective as long as the respective statutory authority in each state authorizing the reciprocal privileges remains effective.


    This Reciprocity Agreement shall become effective upon the execution of the authorized Parties' signatures.


    This Agreement may be terminated by either Party or their successor upon thirty (30) days written notice.
    WITNESSETH, each Party to this Reciprocity Agreement has caused it to be executed on the date indicated below.
    This seems to indicate that Pennsylvania will recognize a valid Florida CWFP, and does not specify that the agreement does not apply to PA residents.

    Time to head to findlaw and get the actual staute.

    Right now, it looks like a test case scenario. Being a test case is no fun. Except for the attorney.

    Matt

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    OK, PA does not have all their statutes on the web, but I did locate what appears to be the controlling law:

    Title 18, Chapter 61, 6109. Licenses.

    (a) Purpose of license.--A license to carry a firearm shall be for the purpose of carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle throughout this Commonwealth.

    (b) Place of application.--An individual who is 21 years of age or older may apply to a sheriff for a license to carry a firearm concealed on or about his person or in a vehicle within this Commonwealth. If the applicant is a resident of this Commonwealth, he shall make application with the sheriff of the county in which he resides or, if a resident of a city of the first class, with the chief of police of that city.

    (c) Form of application and content.--The application for a license to carry a firearm shall be uniform throughout this Commonwealth and shall be on a form prescribed by the Pennsylvania State Police. The form may contain provisions, not exceeding one page, to assure compliance with this section. Issuing authorities shall use only the application form prescribed by the Pennsylvania State Police. One of the following reasons for obtaining a firearm license shall be set forth in the application: self-defense, employment, hunting and fishing, target shooting, gun collecting or another proper reason. The application form shall be dated and signed by the applicant and shall contain the following statement:

    I have never been convicted of a crime of violence in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania or elsewhere. I am of sound mind and have never been committed to a mental institution. I hereby certify that the statements contained herein are true and correct to the best of my knowledge and belief. I understand that, if I knowingly make any false statements herein, I am subject to penalties prescribed by law. I authorize the sheriff, or his designee, or, in the case of first class cities, the chief or head of the police department, or his designee, to inspect only those records or documents relevant to information required for this application.

    (d) Sheriff to conduct investigation.--The sheriff to whom the application is made shall investigate the applicant's record of criminal convictions, shall investigate whether or not the applicant is under indictment for or has ever been convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment exceeding one year, shall investigate whether the applicant's character and reputation are such that the applicant will not be likely to act in a manner dangerous to public safety and shall investigate whether the applicant would be precluded from receiving a license under subsection (e)(1) or section 6105(h) (relating to persons not to possess, use, manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms) and shall conduct a criminal background, juvenile delinquency or mental health check following the procedures set forth in section 6111 (relating to firearm ownership).

    (e) Issuance of license.--

    (1) A license to carry a firearm shall be for the purpose of carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle and shall be issued if, after an investigation not to exceed 45 days, it appears that the applicant is an individual concerning whom no good cause exists to deny the license. A license shall not be issued to any of the following:


    (i) An individual whose character and reputation is such that the individual would be likely to act in a manner dangerous to public safety.
    (ii) An individual who has been convicted of an offense under the act of April 14, 1972 (P.L.233, No.64), known as The Controlled Substance, Drug, Device and Cosmetic Act.
    (iii) An individual convicted of a crime enumerated in section 6105.
    (iv) An individual who, within the past ten years, has been adjudicated delinquent for a crime enumerated in section 6105 or for an offense under The Controlled Substance, Drug, Device and Cosmetic Act.
    (v) An individual who is not of sound mind or who has ever been committed to a mental institution.
    (vi) An individual who is addicted to or is an unlawful user of marijuana or a stimulant, depressant or narcotic drug.
    (vii) An individual who is a habitual drunkard.
    (viii) An individual who is charged with or has been convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year except as provided for in section 6123 (relating to waiver of disability or pardons).
    (ix) A resident of another state who does not possess a current license or permit or similar document to carry a firearm issued by that state if a license is provided for by the laws of that state, as published annually in the Federal Register by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms of the Department of the Treasury under 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(19) (relating to definitions).
    (x) An alien who is illegally in the United States.
    (xi) An individual who has been discharged from the armed forces of the United States under dishonorable conditions.
    (xii) An individual who is a fugitive from justice. This subparagraph does not apply to an individual whose fugitive status is based upon nonmoving or moving summary offense under Title 75 (relating to vehicles.)
    (xiii) An individual who is otherwise prohibited from possessing, using, manufacturing, controlling, purchasing, selling or transferring a firearm as provided by section 6105.
    (3) The license shall bear the name, address, date of birth, race, sex, citizenship, Social Security number, height, weight, color of hair, color of eyes and signature of the licensee; the signature of the sheriff issuing the license; the reason for issuance; and the period of validation. The sheriff may also require a photograph of the licensee on the license. The original license shall be issued to the applicant. The first copy of the license shall be forwarded to the commissioner within seven days of the date of issue, and a second copy shall be retained by the issuing authority for a period of six years.

    (f) Term of license.--

    A license to carry a firearm issued under subsection (e) shall be valid throughout this Commonwealth for a period of five years unless sooner revoked.
    At least 60 days prior to the expiration of each license, the issuing sheriff shall send to the licensee an application for renewal of license. Failure to receive a renewal application shall not relieve a licensee from the responsibility to renew the license.
    (g) Grant or denial of license.--Upon the receipt of an application for a license to carry a firearm, the sheriff shall, within 45 days, issue or refuse to issue a license on the basis of the investigation under subsection (d) and the accuracy of the information contained in the application. If the sheriff refuses to issue a license, the sheriff shall notify the applicant in writing of the refusal and the specific reasons. The notice shall be sent by certified mail to the applicant at the address set forth in the application.

    (h) Fee.--The fee for a license to carry a firearm is $19. This includes a renewal notice processing fee of $1.50. This includes an administrative fee of $5 under section 14(2) of the act of July 6, 1984 (P.L.614, No.127), known as the Sheriff Fee Act. No fee other than that provided by this paragraph or the Sheriff Fee Act may be assessed by the sheriff for the performance of any background check made pursuant to this act. The fee is payable to the sheriff to whom the application is submitted and is payable at the time of application for the license. Except for the administrative fee of $5 under section 14(2) of the Sheriff Fee Act, all other fees shall be refunded if the application is denied but shall not be refunded if a license is issued and subsequently revoked. A person who sells or attempts to sell a license to carry a firearm for a fee in excess of the amounts fixed under this subsection commits a summary offense.

    (i) Revocation.--A license to carry firearms may be revoked by the issuing authority for good cause. A license to carry firearms shall be revoked by the issuing authority for any reason stated in subsection (e)(1) which occurs during the term of the permit. Notice of revocation shall be in writing and shall state the specific reason for revocation. Notice shall be sent by certified mail, and, at that time, a copy shall be forwarded to the commissioner. An individual whose license is revoked shall surrender the license to the issuing authority within five days of receipt of the notice. An individual whose license is revoked may appeal to the court of common pleas for the judicial district in which the individual resides. An individual who violates this section commits a summary offense.

    (j) Immunity.--A sheriff who complies in good faith with this section shall be immune from liability resulting or arising from the action or misconduct with a firearm committed by any individual to whom a license to carry a firearm has been issued.

    (k) Reciprocity.--The Attorney General may enter into reciprocity agreements with other states providing for the mutual recognition of each state's license to carry a firearm.
    I do not see any provision in this section that says if you have a PA license and an out-of-state license you can no longer carry. The code simply says:

    Title 18, Chapter 61, 6106. Firearms not to be carried without a license.

    (a) Offense defined.--Any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.
    (that section goes on to list who can carry without a permit, omitted here for clarity).

    I think this would land one squarely in the realm of being a "test case", since the law does not specifically say you can carry on an out of state permit if your PA permit is revoked but the authorities are likely to see that as trying an end run around the law.

    Based on what I have found, I would say that you would probably be in technical compliance with the law if you carried in PA under a Florida permit after your PA permit was pulled (as long as the reason was not sufficient to invalidate the Florida permit, such as being convicted of a felony, etc.)

    That said, I am not a lawyer, and your milage (and incarceration) may vary.

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