"WE" all know better, don't we?

This is a discussion on "WE" all know better, don't we? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by TedBeau after re-reading the article I just had to send this to the reporter. Here is a copy of the email I ...

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  1. #46
    Member Array bigdogtx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedBeau View Post
    after re-reading the article I just had to send this to the reporter. Here is a copy of the email I sent.

    Chris, I wanted to write to you about an article you wrote that I found on the internet. The article from the Dayton Daily news, was published on October 7. It concerned a man from Beavercreek that fired several shots at someone breaking into his wife’s car.
    I realize that in today’s economy newspapers are trying to cut cost, but has your paper totally done away with editors, proof readers and spell checking software?
    There are numerous error in the article.
    Mistakes 1 and 2.
    Phil D. McCall, of 2281 Horseshoe Court in the Hunter’s Ridge subdivision, told 911 dispatchers he fired his .10 mm handgun twice after he discovered a man rooting inside his wife’s care overnight Oct. 6.
    There is no thing as a .10 mm handgun. There is however a 10 mm handgun. Secondly, I think you meant the thief was rooting in home owners wife’s CAR not care.

    Mistake #3

    McCall told the dispatcher a “young punk kid” in baggy sweat pants rang his doorbell and then got inside his wife car.

    There should be an apostrophe in the word wife’s.

    Mistake #4
    McCall said he grabbed his gun, ran outside in his underwear and yelled for the burglar to stop before firing two shots in the suspect’s direction, he said.


    You tell us McCall Said, and end with he said, this is redundant.

    Mistake #5
    In a separate 911 call Joe Sheehan, a neighbor on nearby Wild Dance Trail, said heard the gunshots from what he thought was a car shooting from Beaver Valley Road toward Horse Shoe Court.

    You missed the word he, as in “said he heard the gunshots”.

    Mistake #6
    Spicer said while firing a weapon in a residential neighborhood is dangerous, people should not try to take the law into their own hands.

    This sentence doesn’t make sense, was Spicer firing a weapon in the neighborhood while saying this? Or was there supposed to be something additional after dangerous, such as “ it is allowed under law”?
    Maybe it would be better if you left out the word while, as in;
    “Spicer said firing a weapon in a residential neighborhood is dangerous, people should not try to take the law into their own hands.” Better?

    In addition I would like to point out that the fact that the homeowner had a perrnit to carry a concealed weapon is irrelative since he was on his own property and no such permit is required to protect yourself and home.
    Nice letter. I hope you used irrelevant in your letter to him.

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  3. #47
    Distinguished Member Array Stetson's Avatar
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    Give this guy a cap gun after he shows he's competent with that he can move up to a bb gun.Then he'll have to demonstrate ability for the following :

    Paint gun, if it's tweaked out extra hour of training half of which you are the target.
    Next step pellet gun,we start you out with almost empty cylinders so we know you won't hurt yourself.

    I thought hard and long on this on because now we are going back to center fire
    ammo.Here it goes,I've selected High Point in 45acp in pistol.I am told they can't make these fast enough for the bad guys at under 2 bills they are a great throw away piece. ( I am told this by repeat customers) If you have any questions about these scrap metal pistols they have their own web page.
    Please take this in jest Hollow pointHank I for one is glad you had the intestinal fortitude to discharge a large caliber pistol in a small area.I a confined area I do believe you need to have something smaller like a 44spl,45acp,9mm,357,44-40.There's something out there that would make you happy I just know it! You got lucky this first time.

  4. #48
    New Member Array DakPara's Avatar
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    Allow me to add a few facts to this discussion.

    1. The bad guy was armed. According to the police report, when the bad guy started running he turned and faced Phil while reaching into his pocket, but fell down (because of his low "gang-style" pants) while pulling out a "shiny" gun, stumbling backwards. But he fell on his side, on his gun hand arm, and could not immediately shoot. While he was on the ground with the gun in his hand, eye-to-eye, Phil had him sighted but decided not to kill him (likely would not have been my decision) since BG was in no position to shoot from the ground while laying on top of his gun. Then he immediately turned away, got up, and ran toward the car. But Phil could see the getaway car was empty and shot the car twice, just for the heck of it I guess. No one in the neighborhood was in danger (barring a miracle ricochet of course).

    2. About 10 minutes later, a neighbor on a separate street in a separate 911 call reported someone shooting at the back of Phil's house (from the road behind the house) from the exact same getaway car. This confirms they were armed.

    3. The BG was likely rumaging around in the car to get to the garage door opener. If they were just going to rob the car, why did they need a separate pickup truck with the tailgate down and the engine running? There were two vehicles.

    4. The BG was not even close to 30 yards away, this is just one of those "heat of the moment" observations after a shooting. It was more like 20-30 feet.

    5. Phil has been shooting guns since he was very young and regularly wins practical competitions in the area. He was also in the miltary for a time. I have no doubt he can hit anything reasonable he aims at and knows his backdrops. Last summer he was invited to join the local police competitive practical shooting team.

    6. There will be no prosecution, no charges have been or will be brought (according to the DA), and he has his gun back. The most they could think of was discharging a firearm across a road (really a hunting rule), but even they decided that was ridiculous and decided not to pursue it.

    So, case is closed.

    BTW, If this had happened in Texas I could have just shot the bad guy with a rifle (or anything else) from my window. It is totally legal to use deadly force here to protect property at night. As it should be and has been for 100's of years here. Goes back to the cattle rustling days.

  5. #49
    Senior Member Array mastercapt's Avatar
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    Shooting

    Going by the above, the shoot is justified. Seems the anti-gum media embellished it, to twist the facts to their anti-gun position.

    Here in Floriduh, you are not allowed to shoot a car burgler, unless he makes a clear threat to your life.
    If he's in your occupied home, he commited a criminal trespass, a felony, and you are allowed to shoot. You are not REQUIRED to back down in your house. However, you are required so outside your home if life threat is not involved. EG: somone shot in the back.

  6. #50
    Distinguished Member Array Guardian's Avatar
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    I don't care what the devil is being robbed inside a car, grab a dang baseball bat and go out swining, you don't fire a gun in any direction just to scare someone off, that's just plain stupid and I don't care who says differently unless you live out in the desert and your closet neighbor is 5 miles away.

    This guy is an idiot.
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

  7. #51
    VIP Member Array mprp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Warrior View Post
    In OUR CCW training, in the state of Ohio: You DO NOT have the right to shoot at people outside to defend property, especially unarmed people in the dark who are not threatening or shooting at you. I am glad that he was not prosecuted or punished, save for a tongue lashing and not a pleasant one for using his gun.
    In my CCW class, (California) we were informed that the only time that we may use deadly force on someone when it comes to property, is when it is arson. My opinion however, is I would rather beat the guy within an inch of his life until LE arrived but not kill him. To me, using a firearm here is not last resort.
    Vietnam Vets, WELCOME HOME

    Crossman 760 BB/Pellet, Daisy Red Ryder, Crossman Wrist Rocket, 14 Steak Knives, 3 Fillet Knives, Rolling Pin-14", Various Hunting Knives, 2 Baseball Bats, 3 Big Dogs and a big American Flag flying in the yard. I have no firearms; Try the next house.

  8. #52
    New Member Array Mr10MM's Avatar
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    Interesting opinion Guardian....

    Unfortunately your opinion seems quite biased based on the fact you repeated "I don't care" twice in your one sentence response. As well you jumped right into name calling based on an anti gun newspaper report when you know nothing about Mr. McCall or the correct facts of the situation. I believe you are on the wrong forum....I believe the forum you are looking for would be more along the lines of ...."Let me call the police and wait with my baseball bat while 2-4 armed men break into my home and put my family in harms way"...

    Let me correct you on a couple of facts regarding your response. If in fact the car was the target (which it was not), it would be a burglary, not a robbery. Also, a 10MM bullet in the cartridge of the type Mr. McCall was using would maybe travel 2 miles if shot at a 45 degree angle....not that it matters that much but facts are facts.

    So, just a suggestion and a few facts for you Guardian..

    If you wish to run outside into an unknown situation with a baseball bat at 4:20 in the morning....feel free...Mr. McCall chose to be better prepared and it saved his life.
    In shooting the BAD GUYS car twice while he was down, Mr. McCall was sending a warning to the BG to not point the firearm in his direction AGAIN or....(well, you figure it out).
    While Mr. McCall was shooting he was saving his own life while saving the life of the BG as well. If you need that explained, then once again....you are on the wrong forum.
    If you believe everything you read in the newspaper, then you are a judgmental person that forms opinions without facts.
    Mr. McCall was not charged with ANYTHING and the case is closed.That should explain more than you will learn in any newspaper.
    Mr. McCall neighbors thanked him for being alert and preventing a possible very ugly event from taking place and also on alerting them as to how the BG's are getting into garages and homes in the area, and that they are armed.

    So....Guardian...you do what you feel is necessary and Mr. McCall will do what he feels is necessary....But Mr. McCall choses not to name call and judge you because he does not know you and its clear you have no idea what you are talking about....

    Have a good day..

    _________________________________________________

    "All that's necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." Benjamin Franklin

    "No man who refuses to bear arms in defense of his nation can give a sound reason why he should be allowed to live in a free country" T. Roosevelt

    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who are not." Thomas Jefferson

  9. #53
    New Member Array DakPara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guardian View Post
    I don't care what the devil is being robbed inside a car, grab a dang baseball bat... This guy is an idiot.
    Don't bring a bat to a gun fight. The fact is he was completely justified in killing the BG since he drew a gun (maybe you missed that) and the shooter could have easily done so, but he decided not to in that split second.

    With all due respect, you know nothing of the circumstances. It was clearly a shoot/no-shoot situation, but he decided on a third way -- it miraculously worked and avoided a lot of personal hassle too. You might also be interested to know he is fully supported by ALL his neighbors (at least within 100 yards of his house).

  10. #54
    New Member Array DakPara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by minas View Post
    I just can't think of any thing in a car worth kill some for,everything can be replaced. Unless it your life or that of a loved one in there. There just NO! justification for shots to be fired ..... Really Really Stupid....
    Unless the Bad Guy is seriously comtemplating shooting you, which this person clearly was. And, about 10 minutes later, the BG drove by the back of his house and shot at it.

    In reality, my only question is why Mr. McCall did not shoot the guy. Clearly as events unfolded shortly thereafter with the drive-by shooting at his house, he and his family would have been safer in the short run, and maybe the long run too.

    Had he known there would be a drive-by shooting 10 minutes later, maybe he would have killed him. He certainly had the legitimate option. The bad guy is probably very lucky Mr. McCall made the 911 call and so did not have a rifle with him to shoot back at the car driving by his back yard (this time) shooting at his house.

  11. #55
    Member Array faif2d's Avatar
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    I am glad I live in Texas.

  12. #56
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    McCall said he was unsure if he wounded anyone during the shooting. “Well, I don’t know,” he told the dispatcher. “He left. He jumped in his car. I told him to stop. He didn’t stop. He was probably about 30 yards away from he. He won’t be back.”
    IMO, with those words he just admitted a criminal act, unless his state's statutes allow the use of lethal force at a fleeing misdemeanor (at night). In Texas, the time of night might well have absolved such actions, but outside of Texas the D.A. might well string him up with those words.

    Still, it's sad. The citizen was CLEARLY not the criminal, in the situation. And yet, his actions to force the criminals to leave him and his property alone might well land him in jail and fined to within an inch of his life. Sad what we're becoming, when a person gets strung up for such things.

    Texas, indeed.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  13. #57
    New Member Array DoNotTread's Avatar
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    Phil McCall we need more like him!

    everyone is quick to hang him out to dry! You pay no attention that the newspaper didn't mention that the perpetrator had a gun even though the police report does. You say he should have not fired his gun? You say that he was reckless?
    Well, I know Mr. McCall and I know him to be a very sensible person. He is well versed on the use of all types of firearms and highly skilled. He had a young punk try to get to his garage door opener which thank God he didn't. He went out of his house to confront this "punk" and stopped in his own yard. The threat was leaving until the "punk" went to pull a gun. Now you all have your opinions as to what you would do or he should have done don't you? Well at 4:20 A.M. a "punk" would be burglar became an armed would be home invader. Mr. McCall at that point was well within his rights to put those two bullets into that "punk". He chose instead to fire away from the young misguided thief/home invader thereby sparing his life. He chose to "let" him live. At my house I believe the coroner would have been called but Phil gave that boy his life back and hopefully he straightens up and leads a good life. So to those of you sheep who believe all that you read and don't search for the real facts I offer you only my pity. And as for Mr. McCall I say well done sir you showed more restraint and exercised more leniancy than I believe I could have mustered.

  14. #58
    New Member Array Mr10MM's Avatar
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    Mr. McCall's case is closed and over....no charges or fines involved.

    Maybe one of these days Ohio will catch up with Texas and just as in Mr. McCall's case understand the difference between the criminal and the victim.

    By the way.....Mr. McCall reports the NRA was ready and waiting to jump in but was not needed.

  15. #59
    Distinguished Member Array Guardian's Avatar
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    Thank you 10MM for your candid response. I will respond the same.

    First, how many times I use a phrase is neither here nor there to be honest, when I want a English lesson, I'll call you.

    Second, I'm making comments about a individual in a news report shooting a gun 30 yards away from his victim as reported in a residential area and as he reported he didn't know if he hit someone and you take it to say I called him names where as I said it's a stupid action on his part and you decide to attack me personally where I commented on the article, now who's doing what here?

    Now, there is no mentiion of the kid having a gun, it says he ordered the kid to stop and when he didn't he shot. I don't see any mention of neighbors thanking him, you sure are adding a lot more to this story then what was reported (other then the errors which I find comical also).

    A figure of speech with the desert comments, but if you must state facts, be my guest and as far as my beliefs 10MM, you don't know me either and yet you judge me, so your point is just as wrong then I might add wouldn't you say. I'm also a NRA member and strongly believe in our 2A rights and the right to defend my home, family and property, but I won't shoot at what I don't intent to hit in a residential neighborhood, so I stand by my comments, like it or not, I don't really care.

    Have a great day yourself.

    As far as not knowing what I'm talking about, I read the article and took my information from the article, the extra stuff you talk about is not mentioned, so I'm only speaking from what is said, not from what I can't read.
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

  16. #60
    New Member Array DakPara's Avatar
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    I thought others might like to see the law regarding property protection and use of deadly force in Texas. Notice it even includes theft or criminal mischief (but only during the night time). I do this to illustrate the substantial differences between states.


    SUBCHAPTER D. PROTECTION OF PROPERTY

    Sec. 9.41. PROTECTION OF ONE'S OWN PROPERTY.

    (a) A person in lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful interference with the property.

    (b) A person unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible, movable property by another is justified in using force against the other when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to reenter the land or recover the property if the actor uses the force immediately or in fresh pursuit after the dispossession and:

    (1) the actor reasonably believes the other had no claim of right when he dispossessed the actor; or

    (2) the other accomplished the dispossession by using force, threat, or fraud against the actor.

    Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.


    Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:

    (1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and

    (2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

    (A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or

    (B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and

    (3) he reasonably believes that:

    (A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or

    (B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

    Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.


    Sec. 9.43. PROTECTION OF THIRD PERSON'S PROPERTY. A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property of a third person if, under the circumstances as he reasonably believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.41 or 9.42 in using force or deadly force to protect his own land or property and:

    (1) the actor reasonably believes the unlawful interference constitutes attempted or consummated theft of or criminal mischief to the tangible, movable property; or

    (2) the actor reasonably believes that:

    (A) the third person has requested his protection of the land or property;

    (B) he has a legal duty to protect the third person's land or property; or

    (C) the third person whose land or property he uses force or deadly force to protect is the actor's spouse, parent, or child, resides with the actor, or is under the actor's care.

    Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.

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