"WE" all know better, don't we? - Page 5

"WE" all know better, don't we?

This is a discussion on "WE" all know better, don't we? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Sir, I must speak on your discussion with 10mm. You did in your earlier opinion refer to Mr. McCall as an "idiot". Secondly, you can ...

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  1. #61
    New Member Array DoNotTread's Avatar
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    guardian I must interject

    Sir,
    I must speak on your discussion with 10mm. You did in your earlier opinion refer to Mr. McCall as an "idiot". Secondly, you can get a copy of the sheriff's report from Greene County, Ohio Sheriff's site. As I stated earlier I am a friend of Phil's and personally feel he was not only justified but merciful. In a situation like this he is the only defense between a potential serious threat to his family and this criminal. I don't know about your town but the sheriff response time is just in time to take a report about what happened here in Ohio! I understand that the article you read paints a totally different picture from the truth but thats American media for you. I assure that this man is no "idiot" and certainly not reckless. He is a law abiding family man who did nothing wrong or illegal during this incident. He is guilty only of protecting his family. The economy here is way down and violent crime is on the rise. Had this person attained a garage door opener you may have read a very different story. We who believe in the 2nd amendment and are avid firearm enthusiasts should stick together and not jump to conclusions based on a fabricated story of the mainstream medias. everyone is entitled to their opinion and I wont deny you yours but in this case you just don't have all of the information so either investigate it further for yourself or drop it all together. Remember we got to stick together and i certainly hope you and your family never have to endure what Phil and his has had to go through. take care


  2. #62
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoNotTread View Post
    You say that he was reckless?
    Based on the information "known" to people presented with the scenario (was evidenced from the article), yes.

    He left. He jumped in his car. I told him to stop. He didn’t stop."
    Given this statement, yes, particularly with no mention of threat from the burglar, nor threating behavior or weapon as your follow-on points suggest might have actually been the case. To my knowledge, Ohio doesn't legally condone firing at fleeing burglars, as there is no person crime involved. Though, this comment, as well, pertains to the earlier scenario in which the burglar was not armed, was fleeing, was not presenting a credible threat to a person, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by DakPara View Post
    It was clearly a shoot/no-shoot situation ...
    Not according to the original circumstances available in this scenario, from the original posted article.

    Keep in mind one thing, when questioning the earlier comments about the scenario. From the standpoint of learning something in a debate over a scenario, these articles in the newspaper, anecdotes from people, whatever, are treated as simple scenarios with less than perfect information from which we attempt to judge a reasonable response, likely reality. We seek to imagine the scenario and a suitable response. None of us were there, and none have details beyond those presented in the scenario. But, with the "facts" of a scenario being burglary, flight, and firing "in the direction" of the burglar without knowing if anything was hit, it's not hard to come to the conclusion that the response was a lacking at least, or criminal at worst.

    You come and present other details. If those are true, then perhaps they change the scenario from one to another.

    Either way, please note: the comments relate to the original scenario, minus your follow-on details. If you two have personal knowledge that things are different than presented in the scenario (news), great. Present them and support them, then we'll be able to treat this as something more than a hypothetical scenario for the group, which is generally all we're able to do with these third-party type situations.
    Last edited by ccw9mm; December 6th, 2009 at 10:21 AM. Reason: grammar; clarity.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  3. #63
    Distinguished Member Array Guardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DakPara View Post
    Don't bring a bat to a gun fight. The fact is he was completely justified in killing the BG since he drew a gun (maybe you missed that) and the shooter could have easily done so, but he decided not to in that split second.

    With all due respect, you know nothing of the circumstances. It was clearly a shoot/no-shoot situation, but he decided on a third way -- it miraculously worked and avoided a lot of personal hassle too. You might also be interested to know he is fully supported by ALL his neighbors (at least within 100 yards of his house).
    You seem like a reasonable individual, I listened to the 911 tape of the conversation also and reread the article and there is no mention of a weapon by this gentleman and since the individual has not been caught to my knowledge, I am going to presume that a weapon has not been found without the body to go with it. I sure would like to know where you and 10mm are coming from with the additional information that so far alludes me and the police and the press and everyone else. Please post it.
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

  4. #64
    Distinguished Member Array Guardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoNotTread View Post
    Sir,
    I must speak on your discussion with 10mm. You did in your earlier opinion refer to Mr. McCall as an "idiot". Secondly, you can get a copy of the sheriff's report from Greene County, Ohio Sheriff's site. As I stated earlier I am a friend of Phil's and personally feel he was not only justified but merciful. In a situation like this he is the only defense between a potential serious threat to his family and this criminal. I don't know about your town but the sheriff response time is just in time to take a report about what happened here in Ohio! I understand that the article you read paints a totally different picture from the truth but thats American media for you. I assure that this man is no "idiot" and certainly not reckless. He is a law abiding family man who did nothing wrong or illegal during this incident. He is guilty only of protecting his family. The economy here is way down and violent crime is on the rise. Had this person attained a garage door opener you may have read a very different story. We who believe in the 2nd amendment and are avid firearm enthusiasts should stick together and not jump to conclusions based on a fabricated story of the mainstream medias. everyone is entitled to their opinion and I wont deny you yours but in this case you just don't have all of the information so either investigate it further for yourself or drop it all together. Remember we got to stick together and i certainly hope you and your family never have to endure what Phil and his has had to go through. take care
    Thank you and this was very well put, but I am not the only one that put down that they think this individual was wrong for discharging a firearm in a residential area from almost 30 yards away from his intended victim. Maybe I was a liittle hard on him with the idiot part, but excuse me I'm a retired Air Force Veteran Security Cop, so I'm a little hard on folks shooting and not hitting especially in neighborhoods with other people and kids around at that distance. That what if scenario is ok, but what if then his bullet went into a neighbors house and killed their kid, it plays both ways.

    Let's be realistic here, family man is cool, 2A is cool, NRA member is cool, weapons friendly is cool, I'm all of them, I belong and own many, and I'm with you and him all the way, but I listened to the 911 tape and heard what he said on it and it mentioned nothing of a gun by the punk kid, it did mention the kid running moving away when he shot at him, I heard that in his own words on the tape (did you all listen to the 911 tapes, see I did my homework, did you all??). I applaud you all for sticking up for him, I applaud him for having the courage to go out and confront these little piss ants, but come on, he could have easily defended his home differently and his family with a car almost 30 yards away, someone is not reading this right and he could defend his home and property and not endanger anyone else in the neighborhood. As far as the garage door opener, if he thinks they got away with one as he states he doesn't know what they took, fine, disconnect the dang thing and have the code change, end of that.

    See, I'm with you all the way, I didn't change anything, I did my homework, I didn't add anything to the story, I didn't take anything away. I will take away the idiot part, but I won't stand by and commend someone and agree with someone shooting wildly into a neighborhood just because I'm part of the NRA and support the 2nd Amendment and I own guns and I would shoot anyone who enters my home in a heartbeat or defend my family with extreme prejudice. Some folks put us in a bad light or give the other side ammunition whether it's intentional or by accident, I'm sorry, I'm with you and every, but only up to a point where they hurt my chances of keeping my weapons due to actions that could hurt my cause and this is one of them. Sure no charges were filed by the Sheriffs, that's great, legally speaking, but records wise, that's another story for the other side of a Wyatt Earp or Billy the Kid shooting up a neighborhood.

    Think about it.
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

  5. #65
    Distinguished Member Array Guardian's Avatar
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    911 audio: Beavercreek man shoots at thief breaking into wife’s car

    I hope this works, never did it here, this is the 911 tape, it's interesting because he says at the end of the tape, he says he was walking away from his wifes car and he yelled at him and he started to run and he fired.
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

  6. #66
    New Member Array DoNotTread's Avatar
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    ccw9mm and guardian

    You both articulate your points very well and I am happy that we have brought this to a serious debate. As I stated I am Mr. McCall's friend for many years now so I may be a little biased. However, there are facts that were not represented. Everyone is using words like "shooting wildly" and "reckless" well that is a matter of interpretation. At 4:20 in the morning he fired two shots, had he shot the criminal he would be applauded for killing an armed would be intruder. He chose not to take a life, when he would have been justified if he did. He instead fired 2 shots directly into the perp's car. I have been on the range many times with this man and he is very safe and highly accurate...he hits what he aims at. I too am leary of anyone who puts at risk our rights but I honestly don't believe Phil has done this. The N.R.A. were ready to go to court with him. If after he fired the shots the police pulled up and caught this criminal and removed his gun from him and arrested him would we be having this debate? Guardian I thank you for your service to our country and your spirited debate but for a second at 4 in the morning put yourself in Phil's shoes everything happens very fast, adrenaline is pumping and you make a split second decision. People have done this and shot their own family members before (accidentally). He had the presence of mind to do what he had to do to make an unwanted, armed person leave the area of his family and he did it without having to kill a young human being. I have never taken a life and I hope I never have to but if it comes down to my family or them ...they lose. I wish I could articulate to you who this man is but believe me he is a friend of all of us and should be commended not condemned. Remember if on that night he put those two bullets into this young criminal they would have found a body and a gun and everything would be different and Phil would have taken a life (justifiably).
    I am proud to call Phil McCall my friend and i support him all the way. I believe he took the "high road" on this matter and that it was not as reckless as it seems.

  7. #67
    Distinguished Member Array Guardian's Avatar
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    DoNotTread - You make sound points yourself and I have been in Phils shoes in the wee hours of the morning on patrols and my adrenaline was pumping going into unknown situations and I was trained to do so, so I grant you that point. I will take your knowledge and words that you know Phil and that he would not risk innocent lifes with wild shots. The distance of the shots and unknown or no mention of a gun from him was what got me that is all. I will say though I still don't agree, but I will let it go and applaud Phil for at least taking a stand like we all should and yes, I would have supported him in the end with that he just didn't let the punks win out, just because I'm a hard butt, doesn't mean I won't see right from wrong in the end Take care DoNotTread, your a good friend to Phil and it's nice to have someone of your caliber on our side.
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

  8. #68
    New Member Array DoNotTread's Avatar
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    guardian

    And to you as well Sir. Again I thank you for your service to our country and have enjoyed speaking with you. As a new member to this site I look forward to reading more of your opinions and wish you and your family well.

  9. #69
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    Could be trouble for this guy, depending on his state laws. Use of deadly force to stop a break-in of an empty car? Don't think so. Now if his wife had just pulled in and was IN the car, then yes.

    Still, in Fl., if the guy was running away, you cannot shoot (at) him, as he isn't present a threat to your life at that point (prevention the crime is the key, not stopping a fleeing BG "after" the crime is committed).

    Defending your property? Property can be replaced (get insurance).

  10. #70
    Distinguished Member Array Guardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Could be trouble for this guy, depending on his state laws. Use of deadly force to stop a break-in of an empty car? Don't think so. Now if his wife had just pulled in and was IN the car, then yes.

    Still, in Fl., if the guy was running away, you cannot shoot (at) him, as he isn't present a threat to your life at that point (prevention the crime is the key, not stopping a fleeing BG "after" the crime is committed).

    Defending your property? Property can be replaced (get insurance).
    He's been cleared already according to some of the folks who live up there, so all is good from that end of it.
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

  11. #71
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    DA has said "no charges will be brought", and the sheriff said "I just want this to be over", as he returned the gun.

    So it should be finished.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedBeau View Post
    after re-reading the article I just had to send this to the reporter. Here is a copy of the email I sent.

    Chris, I wanted to write to you about an article you wrote that I found on the internet. The article from the Dayton Daily news, was published on October 7. It concerned a man from Beavercreek that fired several shots at someone breaking into his wife’s car.
    I realize that in today’s economy newspapers are trying to cut cost, but has your paper totally done away with editors, proof readers and spell checking software?
    There are numerous error in the article.
    Mistakes 1 and 2.
    Phil D. McCall, of 2281 Horseshoe Court in the Hunter’s Ridge subdivision, told 911 dispatchers he fired his .10 mm handgun twice after he discovered a man rooting inside his wife’s care overnight Oct. 6.
    There is no thing as a .10 mm handgun. There is however a 10 mm handgun. Secondly, I think you meant the thief was rooting in home owners wife’s CAR not care.

    Mistake #3

    McCall told the dispatcher a “young punk kid” in baggy sweat pants rang his doorbell and then got inside his wife car.

    There should be an apostrophe in the word wife’s.

    Mistake #4
    McCall said he grabbed his gun, ran outside in his underwear and yelled for the burglar to stop before firing two shots in the suspect’s direction, he said.


    You tell us McCall Said, and end with he said, this is redundant.

    Mistake #5
    In a separate 911 call Joe Sheehan, a neighbor on nearby Wild Dance Trail, said heard the gunshots from what he thought was a car shooting from Beaver Valley Road toward Horse Shoe Court.

    You missed the word he, as in “said he heard the gunshots”.

    Mistake #6
    Spicer said while firing a weapon in a residential neighborhood is dangerous, people should not try to take the law into their own hands.

    This sentence doesn’t make sense, was Spicer firing a weapon in the neighborhood while saying this? Or was there supposed to be something additional after dangerous, such as “ it is allowed under law”?
    Maybe it would be better if you left out the word while, as in;
    “Spicer said firing a weapon in a residential neighborhood is dangerous, people should not try to take the law into their own hands.” Better?

    In addition I would like to point out that the fact that the homeowner had a perrnit to carry a concealed weapon is irrelative since he was on his own property and no such permit is required to protect yourself and home.
    Not to mention I have yet to see a car that is capable of shooting all on it's own!!
    “The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”

    Patrick Henry
    Quote Originally Posted by UnklFungus
    If it is ok to disarm legal citizens to reduce crime, then doesn't it stand to disband the military to prevent war?

  13. #73
    Member Array UnklFungus's Avatar
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    Did anyone notice that the 911 tape was edited for time and content? We may or may not have all of the facts. Something to keep in mind with a ll of the debate over this.
    I feel this was not a justified shooting, as the perp(s) were leaving. I am however glad that no one was hurt and that he didn't go to jail.
    “The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”

    Patrick Henry
    Quote Originally Posted by UnklFungus
    If it is ok to disarm legal citizens to reduce crime, then doesn't it stand to disband the military to prevent war?

  14. #74
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    You are correct Guardian; the case is over and closed.

    Mr. McCall (Phil) is as well a friend and neighbor of mine as you most likely have figured out and he is supported in his actions by everyone on our street. He has even been asked by a couple of other neighbors to give them firearms training so they may as well be prepared for these types of situations. As I stated earlier, it has raised awareness which can only be considered positive.

    Phil and I share a passion for the 10mm cartridge and have had many productive trips to his clubs range and other events that focus on this old FBI cartridge making a come back.

    I as well thank you for your service to our country.

    This thread has now circled back to insurance which means others are keeping it alive just for kicks. Phil considers it over and wishes everyone the best. Stay aware and be ready for the unexpected folks.

    I am glad to have him as a neighbor and I would have his back if he needed it in the middle of the night and I know he would have mine.

    Everyone have a safe and Merry Christmas, he wanted me to add that..

  15. #75
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    Cool Middle of the night

    I have read this OP and others on different forums. I will say to you all that say things are not important. Within the context of live or die then live is the ONLY thing that is important. In the context of me spending my life working to pay for my belongings and the use there of, they represent a segment of my life. When someone takes or destroys something of mine he is taking or destroying a part of my life that I can not recover.

    I do not condone or condemn the OP.

    When You are confronted with such a situation and you have to make split-second decisions then I will listen to your reaction.

    I have gone out into the DARK and SCARY prepared to defend me and mine and I might have to again.

    I have always contacted the police and filed reports. I have always been able to go home afterward.

    Every situation is different and require different reactions.
    The Second Amendment is about the right to be able to protect oneself from all who would do us harm including Legislators!

    I came into this world screaming and covered in someone Else's blood, don't care if I go out the same way

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