Get this guys - Page 3

Get this guys

This is a discussion on Get this guys within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by razor02097 He was not in the wrong nor did he break any laws yet he still got cuffed... detain isn't the same ...

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Thread: Get this guys

  1. #31
    Ex Member Array Deanimator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razor02097 View Post
    He was not in the wrong nor did he break any laws yet he still got cuffed... detain isn't the same thing as arrest but still!
    He was not arrested, but he was deprived of his liberty based on UNreasonable Articulable Suspicion.

    Believing that his out of state CCW credential was a forgery COULD be Reasonable Articulable Suspicion, assuming that there was something about that credential which would lead a REASONABLE LEO in a similar situation to believe that it was not genuine.

    Believing that your valid CCW credential is not recognized in that state when it actually is, is inherently UNreasonable, no matter how the LEO attempts to articulate it. Both he and you MUST know the law and act accordingly.

    An LEO has the power to act based on his REASONABLE belief of the facts (ie that you recently were, are, or will be engaged in a criminal act). He has a duty to KNOW the law before he acts. If he deprives you of your liberty based on an inherently UNreasonable ignorance of the law, he has committed a civil tort against you.

  2. #32
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Feb 2008
    I'm thinking he was planning on arresting the guy for unlawfully carrying a concealed weapon when he handcuffed him and sat him in his cruiser,his own statement about "I didn't know your permit was valid here "would make me think that,and until he was made aware of his ignorance he would have been giving you the "ride".Like Zebra said,the LEO should of been radioing or calling in for verification from somebody that could look up reciprocating states
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

  3. #33
    Ex Member Array Treo's Avatar
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    Nov 2008
    Personally, this is the reason I don't inform unless i am legaly required to do so.

  4. #34
    VIP Member Array hogdaddy's Avatar
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    Mar 2008
    N/E Florida
    Most LEO's that do that ARE ROCKIES or on a POWER TRIP ; )
    A Native Floridian = RARE


  5. #35
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    Jul 2009
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    Good interaction with exception of the cuffs..... Not needed and as 64zebra stated he probably went a little overboard... He probably didn't site ya for speeding due to the being cuffed and placed in his car as a sign of solidarity.
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." Thomas Jefferson

  6. #36
    Ex Member Array F350's Avatar
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    Rocky Mountain High in Colorado
    This whole "taking control of my weapon for safety" after volunteering the fact that I have a CCW and am armed is what really bugs the @$#! out of me on a couple of fronts.

    1}IF I were a BG intending the officer harm would I give away the element of surprise or wait for my chance and just put 2 in his head. LEO aught-a apply a little common sense here. Is a BG going to say "Oh by the way ossifer before I try ta kill ya, just so y'all have a fair chance ya know, I want to let ya know I got a gun on me".

    2} I rode on patrol with a sheriff's deputy buddy for 7+ years, and since he was the department's firearm instructor and the local LEO range belonged to the county I assisted in qualifications for the city, county, and local state university. I can honestly say LEO can be some of THE most gun ignorant people who are in regular contact with firearms I have ever encountered. The city and university issued SA/DA semi-autos (SIGs) and every qualification there was at least one officer that could not manipulate their weapon in a safe manor.

    I carry a a 1911 style SA with manual safety, frankly I doubt a full half of the LEO out there know how to safely handle my pistol and we are both at risk if some gun ignorant LEO tries to unload and make safe my piece.

  7. #37
    Member Array Vtxdpm's Avatar
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    May 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    Personally, this is the reason I don't inform unless i am legaly required to do so.
    South Carolina, where it appears this took place, is a "must notify" state.

  8. #38
    Distinguished Member Array Squawker's Avatar
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    Jun 2006
    Las Vegas NV
    When I read your post, I had to do a quick check to see your state of residence. South Carolina does honor a Florida permit, however for SC to honor an out of state permit, you have to be a resident of that state. I live in Nevada, and even though I do have a Florida CCW permit, I cannot carry concealed in SC, as I'm not a resident of Florida. I was glad to see that you indeed live in Florida. Otherwise, you would have taken a ride with the nice officer.

  9. #39
    Member Array BaserRonin's Avatar
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    May 2009
    Quote Originally Posted by Deanimator View Post
    The LEO's "perspective" is utterly irrelevant. The only thing that's relevant is the law.

    EVERYBODY has to know the law. If you violate it, not knowing it isn't an excuse.

    It's the LEO's JOB to know the law. The idea that he has LESS of a duty to know the law than any citizen is simply absurd.

    If there are "too many" laws for the cop to know, there are too many for YOU to know. Think that cop or any court would buy that excuse? I didn't think so.
    I am glad someone has articulated this and stood by it.

    This whole attitude the police take of not being responsible for keeping up with current laws is unacceptable. Their entire job boils down to enforcing the laws. If they can not take the time to stay caught up on the aspects of what they supposedly do, they should not be doing it. Cut and dry.

    If things change in my industry and I am not willing to pursue these changes on my own time, I would not have a job. Neither should these officers. Being lazy is not an excuse for the rest of us, it shouldn't be for them.

  10. #40
    VIP Member Array jbum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoJoGunn View Post
    Sounds like a letter or call to his Chief is in order and send the trooper back to school to learn the laws. If they are to enforce law, they need to know the law. He wasn't "doing his job" as you state.

    His ignorance of law is no excuse, sounds like poor training to me. He shouldn't have cuffed you and placed you into his car as if you were some common criminal either. I wouldn't let him not giving a ticket influence a decision to call his Superior's and report him.

    What if this "fool" decided that you were a gun-toting menace and decided to draw his own weapon and potentially shoot you, even after you have informed him of the weapon? This just isn't good all around.
    Totally agree ignorance of the law is no excuse on either side of it.

  11. #41
    Member Array kspilot536's Avatar
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    Aug 2009
    I personally think he SHOULD have known the law...EVERY time a citizen breaks a law (unknowly),the cops says the old saying"there is no excuse for ignorance of the law"...this should apply in this case too and the cop should read a little more about the laws,after all it's his job!

  12. #42
    Member Array IronMike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LM2024 View Post
    Looks like a textbook stop to me. The laws concerning reciprocity are always changing. Of course CCWers would know it, because it's the one law that they are concerned about when carrying.

    All CCers I know try to keep up on ALL the laws.To be concerned with only one law would be negligent and quite narrowminded.
    It is pardonable to be defeated but never surprised.
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  13. #43
    Ex Member Array Deanimator's Avatar
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    Rocky River, Ohio
    Quote Originally Posted by IronMike View Post

    All CCers I know try to keep up on ALL the laws.To be concerned with only one law would be negligent and quite narrowminded.
    I read the Ohioans for Concealed Carry forums religiously, PRECISELY so that I am up to date on the laws regarding CCW in Ohio.

  14. #44
    Distinguished Member Array tiwee's Avatar
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    Apr 2009
    I am no genius so I have a notebook with the relevant state law about concealed carry in states that I travel. I have studied Missouri law carefully, but still occasionally check my notebook. I think it would be very difficult to know offhand all reciprocity situations. That is why Missouri law that automatically recognizes conceal carry permits issued in other states and political subdivisions of states is best. No questions about permit validity in Missouri. Should be a national model for all states.

  15. #45
    VIP Member Array JoJoGunn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divebum47 View Post
    While you make some fairly good points, look at it from the LEO's perspective.

    1) He has to know as many laws and about as much about the law as a lawyer. Problem is, he has to make split second decisions based upon that knowledge, and does not have the luxury of a law library and plenty of time.

    2) Most LEO's deal with the dregs of society on a regular basis. Just because you consider yourself one of the good guys doesn't mean the LEO can ascertain that on first glance.

    3) He wants to go home at night. If it means a little discomfort and inconvenience on the part of the citizen then maybe that's little enough to ask for executing a dangerous and thankless job.

    4) It's easy to be an armchair cop when you aren't wearing his moccasins.

    5) If you ("you" being used collectively) don't want to be inconvenienced, don't break the law.

    6) Seems to me the OP has the right attitude.

    I'm not a LEO, never have been one, don't play one on TV or in the movies. I'm too much of a wuss to put up with the kind of crap these guys put up with. I did, however, spend a lot of time working with Police Agencies all over North America. Before I retired, I worked for a mobile computing company which specialized in Public Safety. I have a very small idea of what the average LEO goes through on a normal day. It's real easy to say what should be when you have the luxury of not having to make the decisions or live by the decisions you make.

    YMMV, Void where prohibited, the preceding does not necessarily reflect the opinion of the management.
    One of my very best friends is a police officer in Florida, and yes, I have been on a citizens ride with him, I know what they put up with. However, my buddy knows the law. My opinion about the trooper who doesn't know the law is my opinion, not knocking law enforcement. I just believe the trooper in question went a bit overboard in his assessment with our concealed carry guy. The man offered both his DL and CC license, surrendered his weapon and was still handcuffed and put into the back of a police car. That is excessive in my opinion. Would the trooper traveling through another state, and carrying his firearm getting pulled over by that state's LEO's get treated the same way? If so, then I would think that trooper would be a bit angry after giving his credentials. I'm all for safety, but that was just too much.
    "A Smith & Wesson always beats 4 aces!"

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