Couple hypothetical situations and questions about rights

This is a discussion on Couple hypothetical situations and questions about rights within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Ok, I know most of you will say, take a CCW class, But at the moment, I do not have time. And these have been ...

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Thread: Couple hypothetical situations and questions about rights

  1. #1
    New Member Array JBaker's Avatar
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    Couple hypothetical situations and questions about rights

    Ok, I know most of you will say, take a CCW class, But at the moment, I do not have time. And these have been racking my brain for a few weeks... Anyways

    Lets say, Im at a bank, gas station, or anywhere public for that matter, and the individual who is robbing the place, has a gun, and threatens myself, as well as others with it. If I had a chance, do I have the right to take down that individual? What about if they have a knife?

    Some thing, what if someone breaks into my house, I do not know if they are armed. But I know they are broke into my house, Do I have the right to open fire?

    I'm sure this one has been beaten to death, but if I was at a place where a fort hood disaster was happening, and no police nearby at the time, can I attempt to take him down. Obviously I would be risking my own life. But I feel in such situation I would easily take that chance to save others.

    Basically, If my life is being threatened, or others lives are being threatened, am I allowed to intervene?

    Ive just read too many crazy stories about people being sued for stupid stuff. Ive been told by friends, who have taken the CCW course, and im not sure if they were lying to me, but in VA, you are not allowed to shoot an intruder, but if they are an arsonist, than it is ok, and they said their CCW instructor told them, if it came down to using your weapon on someone broke into your house, just put a gascan next to them

    There are just too many psychos in this world today, and I think if it came down to it. and I felt that using my firearm could save myself or others, I would take the chance.

    Thanks
    Jason

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  3. #2
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    Basically the answer to all your questions are the same. If you can answer yes to these questions you should be legal in a shooting situation:

    1. Are you in fear of your life?
    2. Does the BG have a means and opportunity to cause you serious bodily harm or death?

    Remember, VA does not have a castle doctrine, case law is what is the yard stick things are judged by. While you may avoid criminal charges in a shooting, you can be facing a civil suit by the BG or his relatives.

    As to the gas can/arsonist idea, that is BS. Once again, if you feel your life is threaten by an intruder and can articulate it to the police/DA you should be OK.

    IANAL so don't take my view for legal advise.
    Last edited by archer51; November 8th, 2009 at 09:45 PM. Reason: added thought

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    I would say you have absolutely no right to defend yourself unless you've taken a ccw class... so make the time.

    Ok, ok... all kidding aside. You have always had the right to defend yourself. That is a God given right!

    If you are implying using lethal force to defend yourself. In all States, you have the right to employ lethal force if you truly believe you are in Immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of death or grave bodily harm.

    If you are thinking about using a gun and are not clear on that... you really need to spend some time learning the laws instead of having it spoon fed to you.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

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    Others have answered the question on the basis of if you feel threatened you have the right to defend yourself...

    If you are in a public place and do not have the right to carry there and do intervene you will most likely face prosecution for the unlawful carrying of a firearm... This will most likely keep you from obtaining a CCW permit, later...
    "Texas can make it without the United States, but the United States can't make it without Texas!".... Sam Houston

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    Senior Member Array elkhunter's Avatar
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    I agree with Bark'n here.
    To defend yourself is always a God given right, however it does not always keep you out of the defendant's chair.

    In as many cases as humanly possible, know thy laws. All of 'em that apply.
    Getting your CCW class is a good start.
    AND, do not rely on someone's advice, even here. (I'm not going to be the one in the defendant's chair with you, it will be you alone.)
    If you do take someone's advice, it would be good that that person is a lawyer.

    just my 2 cents.
    It’s so much easier now days, to "Love and honor" my wife, when she is armed, and shoots a better group than I do. (Till death do us part, eh?)

    “The way you get shot by a concealed weapons permit holder is, you point a gun at him,” the Sheriff said.

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    VIP Member Array NC Bullseye's Avatar
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    The first thing you need to realize is that there is no "One per customer" limitations on charges that can be brought against you. You may not be charged with protecting yourself but you can be charged with concealed weapon, trespass, etc even if you're cleared of others. If you don't meet the requirements of justification by law there can be a plethora of charges filed against you other than just protecting yourself. Then after all the criminal legal storm settles down, the civil suits will follow.

    Get the training. Learn the laws. Don't do a Forest Gump. "Stupid is as stupid does."

  8. #7
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Don't ever try to manipulate a crime scene,placing a gas can next to a body,or stick a knife in somebodys hand, it can get you charges even if the shooting was justified
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

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    Member Array ItsMyRight2's Avatar
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    Well if you dont have a CCW and you shoot someone outside of your home ..YES charges will brought against you.And I dont know the laws in your state but some have laws where you have to meet force with equal force. Meaning if they have a knife you can only have a knife.


    Here is a quote from my CCW instructor that might help you.

    "You are not the police! If your at the store and someone is robbing it,unless there is eminent danger of death...let them rob the damn store!! Your gun is for YOUR protection only, not so you can go play cops and robbers"

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    Senior Member Array Keltyke's Avatar
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    In SC, you must believe yourself to be "in imminent fear of loss of life or grave bodily injury." To have that fear, the BG must have:
    1. Intent - does he appear to want to harm you?
    2. Opportunity - is he close enough to harm you?
    3. Ability - does he have the weapon necessary to harm you?

    Several good examples:
    Someone running towards you with a ball bat from 20 feet away, screaming "I'll bash your head in."
    Intent - Yes. "I'll bash your head in."
    Opportunity - Yes. He'll be on top of you in about 2 seconds.
    Ability - Yes. He has a deadly weapon.
    You got the green light all the way.

    Someone standing still in the next block, shaking his fist and yelling, "I"ll beat you senseless."
    Intent - Yes. "I'll beat you senseless."
    Opportunity - No. He's too far away to carry out the threat.
    Ability - Unknown. However, our CWP Instructor told us you must assume he's a karate champion or the reincarnation of Joe Louis.
    Red light here, but be prepared for him to escalate.

    Man standing across the street holding a rifle, yelling, "I'll kill you."
    Intent - Yes. "I'll kill you."
    Opportunity - Yes. The rifle is a long range weapon.
    Ability - Yes. He's holding a rifle.
    Green light here, too.

    You walk in on an armed robbery. The perp turns and points his gun at you, but says nothing.
    Intent - Yes. Our CWP Instructor told us if someone points a gun at you, you must assume he intends to use it.
    Opportunity - Yes. You're within range.
    Ability - Yes. He's holding a gun.
    Green light here. In this case, verbal intent is not necessary as he's already displayed intent by his actions. In SC, merely pointing a gun at someone may be legally considered "use of deadly force".

    If you're not carrying your weapon legally, you may do the right thing morally and pay for it for a long time. It's like having an accident and not having your license - it's automatically your fault because you shouldn't have been on the road without your license.

    Beware of defending others unless you know the whole situation. Is the scruffily-dressed, dirty, unshaven man holding a gun on a man in a business suit a vagrant robber or an undercover cop making an arrest? Guess wrong and you're in deep kimchee. Is the man punching a woman her husband abusing her or a victim of an attempted robbery with a knife? Be sure. As for domestics...stay out!!! You may find both of the individuals will turn on you, no one will press charges against the other, and you'll be hung out to dry.

    I carry a concealed weapon to defend my life and my family's lives - period. I'm not a LEO, nor am I empowered with
    LEO authority. Protecting property (especially someone else's) is not my concern.

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    Senior Member Array Keltyke's Avatar
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    their CCW instructor told them, if it came down to using your weapon on someone broke into your house, just put a gascan next to them
    PLEASE don't try it. With forensic science what it is today, throwdown weapons are a thing of the past. The lab will nail you every time. In SC, we're lucky. It's been determined if someone breaks into your house, you may assume they are there to harm you, not to just rob you - act accordingly.

    But at the moment, I do not have time.
    Make the time. You need some legal/moral instruction about carrying.

    Meaning if they have a knife you can only have a knife.
    Luckily, in SC, "deadly force" is "deadly force" - be it a gun, knife, ball bat, or a stick. If it can kill, it's equal.

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    Senior Member Array gdm320's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltyke View Post
    Luckily, in SC, "deadly force" is "deadly force" - be it a gun, knife, ball bat, or a stick. If it can kill, it's equal.
    It is in Florida as well... I don't know where IMR2 got that one from. Is that really the law in some states? Doesn't make much sense.

    Take the CCW class, then take a tactical pistol course.
    "Bravery is the capacity to perform properly even when scared half to death." -- General Omar Bradley

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    New Member Array JBaker's Avatar
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    Thanks everyone. just to let you know.. I do not carry yet, I do have my CCW but I do not carry, I would like take my CCW class before I carry. But thanks again. i think as it comes down to it, I would defend my family and myself however I see fit, if I felt they were in danger, and worry about the legal issues after. I'm not saying I want to be the police, and save others, but I bring that up because at near Virginia tech early this year, there was a story about some guy decapitating a woman in a restaurant with a kitchen knife, they was no fighting or argueing before the attack witnesses said. I don't see why someone wouldn't go after the guy with a knife themselves to try and stop him. I know if i was there I would have done what I could to attempt to stop such horrific acts. But maybe thats just me. There are too many psychos out there.

    But again, thanks for the input.

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    Distinguished Member Array MinistrMalic's Avatar
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    The big thing I always remember is that EVERY STATE IS DIFFERENT. In a state with Castle Doctrine established you'll be far more likely to be okay legally than in one that does not have it. However, you should take the time to become VERY familiar with the applicable firearms and defense laws of the state you live in.

    I am in AZ and trust me, though IANAL I am very familiar with Arizona's statutes on misconduct involving firearms (ARS 13-3102 for anyone wanting to Google) as well as justifiable actions according to law and case history. That kind of research, which you can do from your computer at home, is absolutely necessary and prudent.

    So get REALLY familiar with Virginia's laws.
    "...whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one." (Luke 22:36)
    Christianity and Self Defense from a Biblical Perspective

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    Member Array ItsMyRight2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdm320 View Post
    It is in Florida as well... I don't know where IMR2 got that one from. Is that really the law in some states? Doesn't make much sense.
    Your right. The the state in question(for me) was Illinois. However I just checked the laws and its not as I said. But I know I have heard people talk about meeting force with equal force. Maybe I am wrong. Anyone else ever heard of this??

    And as far a Virgina goes....Am I the only one who thinks its nuts to give out carry permits to people who have never attended any classes or shown any kind of proficiency with a firearm?? Sounds pretty scary to me.

  16. #15
    Senior Member Array InspectorGadget's Avatar
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    Here are some useful links for someone living in Virginia.

    Virginia Citizens Defense League is a good organization that can help you with specific issues in your state.
    Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc. (VCDL)

    Here is the Handgun Law.US and NRA-ILA breakdowns on Virginia law, depending on where in VA you live I recommend you also learn the laws of the states you live close to.
    http://handgunlaw.us/states/virginia.pdf
    http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/VASL.pdf

    This is a link into the search function on the Virginia State Website, you can search specific criteria, Self Defense, gun laws etc from here.
    LIS > Code of Virginia

    But I still recommend the class, this will allow you to learn more about state specific questions. Also there are more than a few 2A lawyers in Virginia, you may want to do a meet and greet (Retainer) with one in your area in case something bad happens so you have him on speed dial.
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