What do you members think?

This is a discussion on What do you members think? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Treo ... I carry a firearm to defend myself and my family as a last resort and I pity the “sheep dog” ...

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Thread: What do you members think?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post

    ... I carry a firearm to defend myself and my family as a last resort and I pity the “sheep dog” who thinks I’m a sheep under his care.
    If you are sure that you never will need that other people help you or your family in any circumstances, then you are a very lucky person. I carry daily, but a firearm does not make feel like Superman. But that is me; just a “sheep”.
    "The Second Amendment: America's Original Homeland Security"

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by usmc3169 View Post
    Every one has a different reason they started carrying, I did because I refuse to be a victim of violence in any form - this extends to my family and friends. I would not hesitate to help some one if I thought that I could, and I don't leave any options off of the table because you never know what situation you might find yourself in. I am prepared to kill if need be, but hope I dont have to.

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  4. #33
    Ex Member Array Treo's Avatar
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    If you are sure that you never will need that other people help you or your family in any circumstances, then you are a very lucky person.
    I'm not sure of that, I just don't expect it. That's why I carry a firearm that's also why my wife carries a firearm.

    I don’t carry a firearm to protect the people around me they chose to leave themselves defenseless. They’ll be grateful as hell when you do it but they won’t help pay your legal fees. They won’t take up a collection so your wife can keep her house after paying for your funeral. And they sure as hell won’t pay for your hospital fees and physical therapy after you slip on a patch of ice running to the rescue .

    I'm sorry if that sounds cynical or selfish but it's reality. I have a family to take care of. I have bills to pay and I have people that expect me to be there for them. My first duty is to them. Does that mean I won't help the nieghbor shovel their walk or load a roto tiller into their truck:? Of course not.

    What I won't do is engage in a gunfight where everyone is liable to get very badly hurt unless there is no other option open. I certainly won't do so on behalf of some random stranger when I'm not in posession of all the facts

  5. #34
    Ex Member Array hamlet's Avatar
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    Intervening can be a very dicey thing - because it's easy to be wrong.

    The screaming kid being pulled by an aggressive man into a car that suddenly has stopped could be a kidnap victim or a child who's father found him after he left the yard for the FIFTH time that month, and is angry.

    The guy running out of the store that someone on the street has screamed "robbery!" about- with that gun in his hand, may be the owner running out to see where the BG took off to.

    The scrufty guy with the gun at the head of man in the fine clothes kneeling in the street, could be an undercover Fed arresting a high-stakes drug king-pin after a car chase.

    A gang beating a woman is unmistakable it seems, and I would have no ethical choice but to intervene with my gun, pull it at least while calling 911.

    In short, there are instances when it's appropriate, but it better be or we'll have a lifetime of guilt and likely prison time for shooting the father, or shooting the store owner, or shooting the FBI Agent.
    Last edited by hamlet; November 14th, 2009 at 03:00 PM. Reason: spelling

  6. #35
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    There's some excellent points being made here and in short, I'll line up with cvHoss and Rottkeeper. Whether you consider yourself a sheepdog or a sheep is irrelevant in a moment of crises. IMO, that's when the animal in each of us comes out and we either decide to fight or evade.

    IMO, there's nothing wrong with defending your fellow man, it's been going on since the dawn of time. If you're not into it so be it, but judging others for their willingness to defend a total strangers life or well being is ridiculous and without merit. I for one am glad there's folks like us out there and America was founded on the same principles.
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." Thomas Jefferson

  7. #36
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    I have to agree with Hamlet. This is just like a original post, you just do not know what the " STORY" is when you arrive, but you will find out if you branish your weapon and YOU decide to use it. I remember a moment in my life as I was walking down the streets in NYC one day. Here I come to a situation with a man beating a woman. I made a decision to try to stop this beating only to be verbally assaulted by the female to mind my ******* business. I was shocked, now I was the BG, who who have thought!
    Remember what A, Lincoln said, I would rather stay quiet and say nothing and make people think I am dumb than speak and prove than right. I my be a little off in his quote but you understand ahat I am saying, I would rather stay outside a situation ( called the right people) than get into it and change my life forever. Now remember you would handle every situation differently, just be very very cautious!

  8. #37
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    What it basically boils down to is get involved or not.

    And thats a decision each and every one of us has to make on our own.

    There are many factors to weigh, including analyzing the facts as you see them, risk to your family or friends who are with you, risk to bystanders, and then there are liability issues.

    Some things to consider:
    • A weapon is just a tool, and the only thing it does is give you options.
    • You have no obligation to use it, and have many reasons not to.
    • As a civilian you are not covered by a union, or liability insurance. So even if you are helpful, and only the BG gets hurt, your attorney expenses after the fact may cost you thousands.
    • You only have a split second to make this decision that can affect the rest of your life.


    With all things considered Id say its best for civilians not to get involved, and instead call 911 and be a good witness. But, thats hard to do sometime, and over the years Ive found myself, getting involved, more times, than Id like to count.

  9. #38
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    I'm not a cop, if I wanted to be one, I would have followed that career path years ago.
    I only want a peaceful life, obligated to protecting myself and my family...all others need to take the same SD measures I did, and the 2A clearly made it possible.
    If someone else chooses not to be armed, not to carry, not to be alert, not to get training or practice...then that same person should not expect me to step in and be their protector...especially in a society ready to sue for any miscalculation.

    Stay armed...stay alert...stay safe!
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  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottabkiddin View Post
    There's some excellent points being made here and in short, I'll line up with cvHoss and Rottkeeper. Whether you consider yourself a sheepdog or a sheep is irrelevant in a moment of crises. IMO, that's when the animal in each of us comes out and we either decide to fight or evade.

    IMO, there's nothing wrong with defending your fellow man, it's been going on since the dawn of time. If you're not into it so be it, but judging others for their willingness to defend a total strangers life or well being is ridiculous and without merit. I for one am glad there's folks like us out there and America was founded on the same principles.
    I don't believe that anyone is"judging" anyone for their willingness to defend a total strangers life, neither does it have anything to do with sheep, sheepdog, or anything animal. And taking into serious consideration that the principles that America was founded on no longer exist in today's mainstream society, it's ridiculous and without merit to ignore the extreme and almost unimaginable consequences that one, and one's family, will suffer for their willingness to defend others in today's anti-gun society and a judicial system VOID of common sense and principles you mention. "Animal" is absent of common sense, the inability to make choices pending consequences, going on instinct instead of intelligence. It has nothing to do with any decision to simply fight or evade. Our prisons are full of people who acted out of animal instinct, and principle, regarding their fellow man, I choose not to be one of them. There are unmitigated circumstances that justify defending other than yourself when licensed to carry. It is our personal responsibility to remain within the STRICT boundaries of those circumstances and laws applied to CCW, not our principles. I'm not a caped crusader or John Wayne. I don't carry to protect or defend anyone except myself or my immediate family..PERSONAL defense/protection. These total strangers have the same rights and the choice in relation to CCW. Should they choose not to carry, my conscience is not subject to their poor choice or their consequences.

  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bart View Post
    I don't believe that anyone is"judging" anyone for their willingness to defend a total strangers life, neither does it have anything to do with sheep, sheepdog, or anything animal. And taking into serious consideration that the principles that America was founded on no longer exist in today's mainstream society, it's ridiculous and without merit to ignore the extreme and almost unimaginable consequences that one, and one's family, will suffer for their willingness to defend others in today's anti-gun society and a judicial system VOID of common sense and principles you mention. "Animal" is absent of common sense, the inability to make choices pending consequences, going on instinct instead of intelligence. It has nothing to do with any decision to simply fight or evade. Our prisons are full of people who acted out of animal instinct, and principle, regarding their fellow man, I choose not to be one of them. There are unmitigated circumstances that justify defending other than yourself when licensed to carry. It is our personal responsibility to remain within the STRICT boundaries of those circumstances and laws applied to CCW, not our principles. I'm not a caped crusader or John Wayne. I don't carry to protect or defend anyone except myself or my immediate family..PERSONAL defense/protection. These total strangers have the same rights and the choice in relation to CCW. Should they choose not to carry, my conscience is not subject to their poor choice or their consequences.
    I can say is wow!

    That's a whole lot of prusumption on your part from about six lines of text on a hypothetical scenario there, Bart.
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." Thomas Jefferson

  12. #41
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    Sheep dawgs

    I'm almost afraid to post this because if I do some one will take it seriously but about 2 years ago a poster named Silverlance posted this on another board. He was dead serious and wanted all shooters to take this oath. The reason(IMO) he went that far off the deep end is because he bought into all that "I'm a sheepdog" crap.

    My absolute loathing for that term dates from about the time this post hit the boards.

    A Shooter's Duty

    1. I will carry myself as an honorable individual, a veritable exemplar of honesty, gentility, and kindness as befits the critically reasoning individual that I am, so that others respect me and the culture that I bear.

    2. I will always be ready to demonstrate to others the meaning of courage, fearing not to speak when lessen men might remain silent, even if it means that I may draw the baleful attention of the majority.

    3. I will strive vigorously to teach others in the ways of firearms, demystifying the stultifying effects of Mainstream Media, and bringing more enlightened souls into our ranks.

    4. I will care for my firearms, and regularly practice with them proudly, so that I will be competent in the hour of need.

    5. I will be prepared to use my skills and knowledge to defend myself and others, even those who would seek the removal of my rights.

    6. I will maintain relations with this our community of shooters, so that we are a unified body, and may respond en masse as a contigent of citizens to any threat.

  13. #42
    Member Array Bart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottabkiddin View Post
    I can say is wow!

    That's a whole lot of prusumption on your part from about six lines of text on a hypothetical scenario there, Bart.
    I'm presuming that you made a statement? And if the scenario was hypothetical, or not, what difference does it make for reference, and further discussion of said scenario, either way?

  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by bornlucky View Post
    i recently joined this forum and find it very interested, knowledgeable, and entertaining. The one issue that sticks with me is the issue of when to use your firearm. I sit and read many encounters that members here face and wonder why do they put themselves in those situations. I personally would not get in any situation that does not concern my family and myself. I feel you have to look at it from the point that you do not know all the information, you are seeing it from the moment you arrived. Who knows what happened before you came into the picture. Also, I feel that before we started CC it would have been a fist fight, now that we have a weapon we feel that we have to use it if some one gets in our face.
    First of all, CCW is not a game or entertainment or getting into a simple fistfight. It is a responsibility, a serious responsibility that is to be used only when you consider your life in danger or protecting your property(Castle Doctrine laws must be in place). Drawing your weapon for any other reason is likely to get you charged with brandishing. Times have changed and our world is not the same. Police officers are finding themselves outgunned by common criminals who may be strung out on drugs, alcohol, or whatever. Today's world is more violent, probably perpetuated by video games and social disorder.

    Sometimes I wish for the "old" days when things were settled by a simple fistfight...and I am only 49.
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  15. #44
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    When a pal and I took our CCW class, the civil and legal responsibilities and consequences were emphasized with our hypothetical scenarios and annecdotes and stories of our instructors. I ask myself these questions every day since I have been legally carrying a gun inside the door pouch of my car: Are you defending yourself or looking for an excuse to shoot and have fun with your gun? If you are far enough away to aim your gun, you are far enough away to run. It is no longer self-defence if you are shooting across a street. Will you have the mind or the time to rack back a slide and take off a safety?

  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by bornlucky View Post
    i recently joined this forum and find it very interested, knowledgeable, and entertaining. The one issue that sticks with me is the issue of when to use your firearm. I sit and read many encounters that members here face and wonder why do they put themselves in those situations. I personally would not get in any situation that does not concern my family and myself. I feel you have to look at it from the point that you do not know all the information, you are seeing it from the moment you arrived. Who knows what happened before you came into the picture. Also, I feel that before we started CC it would have been a fist fight, now that we have a weapon we feel that we have to use it if some one gets in our face.
    I walk out of the mall, and a group of men are violently assaulting a member of YOUR family. Do you want me to intervene? or should I just worry about ME and MY family?

    How would you honestly answer this question?

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