Another newbie legal question

This is a discussion on Another newbie legal question within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Ok, I generally carry a small .380 IWB, but very very often carry my 9mm Glock or .40 S&W Glock in a leather waistpack/fannypack, and ...

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Thread: Another newbie legal question

  1. #1
    Member Array RPB's Avatar
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    Another newbie legal question

    Ok, I generally carry a small .380 IWB, but very very often carry my 9mm Glock or .40 S&W Glock in a leather waistpack/fannypack, and you can't tell there is a gun inside, unless it's opened.

    I know of one wrongful detention by a Wal-Mart years ago, resulting in a lawsuit against WalMart, where a man was detained when they thought he was shoplifting, but he wasn't.

    My question is sort of constituional search and seizure/false imprisonment versus "concealed"

    Really, I just want to know how to handle a situation, should it ever occur:

    Suppose I'm leaving a WalMart and the lady by the exit door asked to see inside my fanny pack.

    Would I open it for her there, and be in violation for not being concealed

    or

    Ask her to call the manager where we could go in his office and ask what the probable cause of the search is, and then ?

    or

    Show the Manager, or store security, my license and hand him my fanny pack containing my weapon

    or

    Explain or show the manager my license, but hang onto it, and have the manager call for police if he wants to go further with the matter, and wait for police and show them my license before handing them the fanny pack containing my weapon.
    -------


    I could deal with the civil matter of illegal search or wrongfully detaining me later, I just want to know what's best while at the store, (so I'm not in violation of anything) if that ever occurred.

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  3. #2
    Ex Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Concealed is concealed, I wouldnt show anyone but a LEO whats in the bag...Meaning if they are accusing you of stealing, then call the PD right away.

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    That's my first impression or thought too, just wanted to ask someone, since my CHL is brand new.

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    Senior Member Array MR D's Avatar
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    I ignore the ungreeter - it is not required that you read, write, speak or understand English to shop at Wal-Mart. I may choose to communicate in Spanish or German...

    There id no lawful requirement to submit to a search of your person or property. (Unless the request is made by properly ID'd LEO I do not submit.) (This may be different in your state - YMMV)

    IANAL

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    Member Array MountainPacker's Avatar
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    I spoke to the deputy that handles CCW for Arapahoe County, Colorado about this very subject, though I phrased is as what happens if the loss prevention alarm goes off and they want to search me.

    Politely decline their request to look. They can't force the issue unless they saw you put something in there. If they think they did, politely decline to go to the office etc. and offer to wait there and call police to handle it. If the po-po want to disarm you, let them.

    I would never want to be in a store managers office with him insistant, perhaps physically so, that he get at my weapon.

    Waiting politely by the door while waiting for police should keep the store people off your back until you have someone there to keep them from doing something stupid or dangerous.

    After getting my answer from the deputy about my hypothetical case, I've never needed to apply that information in many years of carrying.

  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR D View Post
    I ignore the ungreeter - it is not required that you read, write, speak or understand English to shop at Wal-Mart. I may choose to communicate in Spanish or German...

    There id no lawful requirement to submit to a search of your person or property. (Unless the request is made by properly ID'd LEO I do not submit.) (This may be different in your state - YMMV)

    IANAL


    Wonder if she speaks Kilngon?

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    Thanks MountainPacker, that sounds like a good plan.

    Very good advice, sounds like he ran into that before ... "Waiting politely by the door while waiting for police should keep the store people off your back until you have someone there to keep them from doing something stupid or dangerous."

    Thanks guys, I just needed reinforcement, so I don't stupidly open my zipper and flash the old lady at the door. Thinking they had some right to see inside my zipper.
    Well, that sounds funny, but you know what I mean.
    -------

    I got a similar reply elsewhere:

    What legal authority does the lady by the exit have to search you?
    What legal authority does the Store Manager have to search you?
    What legal authority does store security have to search you?

    Tell them "No". They aren't law enforcement and don't have a warrant or probable cause.

    If they want you to stay while they call in police (and you feel like staying), when the LEO arrives and asks for ID, show them your CHL and explain that "this is why" you chose to not open your pack.

    If you don't want to stay, what legal right do they have to detain you? If they want to get aggressive and lay hands on you, I believe that's battery

  9. #8
    Member Array Bm7b5's Avatar
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    In WA state a shopkeep has right to detain you, but not search you.
    A traffic ticket is formal recognition of a lapse in situational awareness.

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    Distinguished Member Array PastorPack's Avatar
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    +1 on the above comments. I have wondered about the same thing myself.
    Showing your weapon could land you in a bigger mess. (headlines might read "suspected shoplifter pulls gun.")

    I will add that whenever I see a waist/fanny pack, I assume their is a gun in it.
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  11. #10
    Ex Member Array Treo's Avatar
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    Show the Manager, or store security, my license and hand him my fanny pack containing my weapon
    Never , under any circumstance do you surrender your weapon to anyone other than a Police Officer duly authorized to disarm you.

    I wouldn't consent to a search by an Officer why would I consent to one from a Wal-Mart employee?

  12. #11
    Senior Member Array Devone6's Avatar
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    Would I open it for her there, and be in violation for not being concealed
    If you open it and flashed your weapon to the door stationed employee just for the sake of showing him/her you had a gun, that is brandishing and is illegal. If you are stopped and requested to show the contents of your pack for whatever reason (and I agree you would not have to) and you do, and a gun is inside which you legally can carry, you have broken no laws.

    Ask her to call the manager where we could go in his office and ask what the probable cause of the search is, and then ?
    Nothing at all wrong with that

    Show the Manager, or store security, my license and hand him my fanny pack containing my weapon
    NO!, you never should hand your firearm over to anyone, much less a (probably) untrained, firearm safety uneducated, Wal-Mart employee, manager, door greeter or otherwise!! The only exception to this at Wal-mart or anywhere else is if a Identified LEO requestes you to give him your weapon, and in that case you should, and just as you stated-leave it in the fanny pack and hand the pack over to the officer, don't pull the gun to hand it over

    Ok, I generally carry a small .380 IWB, but very very often carry my 9mm Glock or .40 S&W Glock in a leather waistpack/fannypack, and you can't tell there is a gun inside, unless it's opened.
    Of course you can tell there is agun inside, if you see a man walking around in Wal-mart with a Fanny Pack on, you can guarantee there is a gun in it!
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    Member Array Siddhartha's Avatar
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    Ran into this same issue in Oregon. I set off the sensors, they told me to stop, but being young and cocky (ie. stupid) I kept walking since I knew the law and they had no right to stop me. Living in a small town, law enforcement was there by the time I made it to my car and an employee grabbed my arm to stop me. When one of the officers approached us, I promptly stated my rights and the law (she had no right to stop me because I am a lot of things but not a thief, she had to tell me what I stoled and where it was on my person) next I informed them that I had a CCW and where my Firestorm .45 was on my hip (Don't worry, I have up graded since, but for 200 bucks 3" groups and never a malfunction I could trust my life with it). The managers eyes were as large as silver dollars when they pulled back my coat and disarmed me, but better than that was the look on her face when they handed back my weapon. She called corporate cause I threatened to sue and later came back with a check that I didn't accept thinking if they were gonna offer that much, just think how much I would get if I were to sue. Never did sue, chalked that up to kharma and I was being cocky. But for that and 100 other reasons I have never shopped there again and never will and IMHO Wally World is as unAmerican as Kim Jung Il. My advise is to wait for the police with the manager, be polite and take the check!!!!

  14. #13
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    I would remain calm and politely tell him, her, them...to have a nice day, and I'd keep walking.
    If grabbed, I'd begin thinking about the new car I like to buy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siddhartha View Post
    She called corporate cause I threatened to sue and later came back with a check that I didn't accept thinking if they were gonna offer that much, just think how much I would get if I were to sue.
    I'm curious, just how much WAS it for exactly?

  16. #15
    Member Array Siddhartha's Avatar
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    @Kral-it was 5k and some change and back in the mid '90s...
    @Retsupt-I did tell them to have a nice day (thats how I piss people off sometimes is by being polite)

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