Yes officer, I have weapons you need to be aware of

This is a discussion on Yes officer, I have weapons you need to be aware of within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Another upstanding citizen made into a criminal via simple, non-threatening statutory missteps. Weapon, eh? By what standard? Again, the tool is the threat. BS. The ...

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  1. #31
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Unhappy

    Another upstanding citizen made into a criminal via simple, non-threatening statutory missteps.

    Weapon, eh? By what standard? Again, the tool is the threat. BS. The INTENT and the ACTION is the threat, not some defensive tool in someone's possession. I hope it all gets tossed for the crock it is, statute or not; and, if statute, then I hope it gets repealed on the insanity clearly capable in the system that's being so clearly shown in this case.

    Now, if the Texas law indicates people are disallowed from owning/carrying OC defensive spray, then I am not suggesting what he did was correct. All I'm suggesting is that the energetic cuff-and-stuff so out of character from someone's intent and nature seems to be getting so common, almost as if those in the system get off on executing the statutory authority they have over the citizenry. It's worth being a bit miffed, when it goes that far. As a society, I believe we've passed well beyond that border.

    ... as if you are guilty and you are left to prove your innocence in court.
    That's what I'm getting at. THAT is the posture of many folks "in the system," sad as it is. THAT should be criminal. It should be exactly the opposite.

    Innocent until proven guilty. It's one of the moral pillars of a well-functioning society that dares claim Liberty as the fuel of the fire in the light the Lady holds. As well it should be. When you stuff that into the bonfire and revel as it goes up in flames, you lose whatever moral righteousness you once held.

    My legislators don't seem to get it, when I roundly excoriate them on the issue, as well. They each indicate they're trying, but (essentially) that the system grinds such desire into dust, much of the time. What an empty answer, that. No wonder we're bending over the far end of the barrel, in many ways.

    There are times when I wonder whether legislators and those charged with enforcing such things are actually on the citizens' side of the fence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
    The problem with that is how many people could understand the law even if they were to carry a copy around with them? If it were that easy to just look at it and say "Ok, got it. This is what that means" then there wouldn't be any need for lawyers.
    Exactly what I'm getting at. When I'm railing at my legislators at the lunacy of it all, they toss up their hands and claim inability to change the machine.

    It's infuriating what we're allowing to occur and what we're becoming, on the larger scale.

    Can't speak to the specifics of this case, which hinge on the particulars of whether OC is legal, whether he intended crime, and whether he was carrying it in violation.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  3. #32
    Member Array oldogy's Avatar
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    Sounds like the LEOs in this scene all need a common sense transfusion. Quite sad indeed. Makes for very little respect of the LE profession.
    oldogy
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  4. #33
    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PastorPack View Post
    40 minute LEO fishing expedition followed by a bogus arrest! I'm all for respecting our Law enforcement, but this guy should have been sent on his way after proving his ownership of the Jet Ski.
    I'm with you Pastor. PC is the jet ski. Oh, the jet ski is yours. Have a good night/day whatever.

    I also fail to see where the argument is from the driver. Yeah he asked him 3 times. But I think I would be too dumbfounded to comply for the first time or two. There would be a few reallys? and Are you seriouses? coming from me first.

    And how did you become a senior officer if you refuse to take control of a situation that you know is going in the wrong direction? Pull someone to the side and tell them to make the phone call.

    My guess is it was a hot shot kid looking to advance his career. Think I'm being to harsh? Talk to my mom who has to call them down on a regular basis for doing things that could get the PD in trouble. In communications she deals with them daily. I usually get a lot of the stories. So and so wants to be a trooper and spends all day under the bridge shooting radar, watch out for him. so and so is trying to make a name for themselves, he wants to be FBI, SBI, Marshal, Trooper, etc. Sad but true sometimes.

  5. #34
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    I think Landric made some pretty good points in his post as I too wondered about a car so "done up" and what that possibly says about the driver.

    Landric is somewhat correct too, that the Texas legislature clearly intended for there to be some unspecified quantitative limit on OC. And, that really needs to be fixed because that ambiguity is one reason I long ago stopped carrying either OC or a knife-- the law on both just isn't clear and won't be till our Texas CHL becomes a CWP.

    Still, looking at the overall picture I have to stand on this one with Pastor P and the others; including the Grand Jury.

    I have a question for the LEs here, and actually specifically for Landric as I really like the way he thinks.

    When LEs make an arrest that goes nowhere (for whatever reason), is there ever any supervisory hindsight applied to gain an understanding of what went wrong with case with the purpose of improving performance in the future? Or, do the suits in the dept. just grumble about the DA and the jurors and the judge?

    Kinda curious because my dad made his living as a designer. When stuff didn't sell he and the salesmen pointed fingers at each other. He grumbled that the salesmen stank, and they grumbled that he made lousy designs.

    When a case like this one goes south, what happens in the dept. to avoid a similar thing in the future, or does everyone just grumble?

  6. #35
    Distinguished Member Array tiwee's Avatar
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    Our police are very good about the suspicion stop. However, once they have the drivers license and run it, they let people go. At that point they have all the information needed to find the individual in the future.

    I got a compliment from a farmer who dropped off his visiting brother-in-law to drive the farmer's tractor home from the shop. The evening man saw a stranger driving a tractor that he knew had been parked at the shop earlier. He stopped the guy and ran his license. Listened to his story and let him go, even though he was from out of town. The farmer called the next day and asked me to thank the police for doing a good job. Now if they had messed with him for four hours and then taken him to county jail, the call would have been a little different.

    In the USA we have local control of the police. I am not conceding the newspaper article is accurate, but if it is, then the mayor and city council are at fault for not hiring a good chief. A well run department would not have the problems apparent in this story.

  7. #36
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    This smells familiar...



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  8. #37
    Member Array andr0id's Avatar
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    Well, it never hurts to have an attorney on speed dial. And it never hurts to ask the questions "Am I under arrest?" and "Am I free to go?" At some point when it becomes obvious to you that a fishing expedition is in progress, then you should call your attorney, even from the side of the road and then shut up. It is never helpful to talk to the police, only harmful.

    If you are not free to go, then you are being detained, and you can have your attorney step in at any time. People get in the most trouble just "answering a few questions" or "explaining what happened".

  9. #38
    Member Array Erik M's Avatar
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    I had an officer draw his weapon on me at a roadblock even after I presented him with my CC license. He asked if I 'had it with me' and when I said yes he unholstered his glock and aimed it at my door and called for his supervisor. I was let go without further incident but I admit I was scared out of my mind I was about to be shot for nothing.

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik M View Post
    I had an officer draw his weapon on me at a roadblock even after I presented him with my CC license. He asked if I 'had it with me' and when I said yes he unholstered his glock and aimed it at my door and called for his supervisor. I was let go without further incident but I admit I was scared out of my mind I was about to be shot for nothing.
    This officer need some additional training, and quickly...
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  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik M View Post
    I had an officer draw his weapon on me at a roadblock even after I presented him with my CC license. He asked if I 'had it with me' and when I said yes he unholstered his glock and aimed it at my door and called for his supervisor. I was let go without further incident but I admit I was scared out of my mind I was about to be shot for nothing.
    I sure hope you filed this with his department.....its just plain scary.
    Andy
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  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
    I am probably in the minority on this but...Officers can't know everything. Seriously, look at the penal code for a city/state/county/etc. It's freaking massive. Cops arent lawyers. I understand that it is hard to enforce the law if one does not KNOW the law but they can't be expected to know ALL of the law. That's what judges and lawyers are for. That being said I think the state should have to pay the guys legal fee's without a doubt.
    If you arrest me for something, you'd BETTER know THAT law. If you falsely arrest me for something that's not a crime, I'm going to come after you without mercy and I WILL get my pound of flesh. If you don't like that, find another job. Actions have consequences.

  13. #42
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiwee View Post
    A well run department would not have the problems apparent in this story.
    The issue that's a mystery is the obvious question: how many are well-run?

    With ~900K cops on the street at roughly ~50 cops per precinct, on average, that's over 18K police departments across the country. I'd be willing to bet a good number of them aren't in the "stellar" range, in terms of quality of leadership, training. Even if only 1% of them are in serious need of improvement, that's still ~180 departments. I am sure that all of us, both inside and outside the profession, have seen one or two that could use some cleaning up.

    There is probably an annual study done to attempt to quantify these sorts of things. Does anyone know if such a thing is done, and whether it's publicly published?

    That being said, my experiences have been great, almost to a "T". One was a bit cranky and high on the power of rousting people on "Harley Davidson Weekend" where I lived at the time, but everyone else has generally been professional and straightforward. Not that I've had many occasions beyond the norm. But I've got a couple buddies in uniform, in various capacities, have taken the time to get to know folks from most of the departments where I have lived. Most are family people, looking to make a difference, sad that the pay isn't what it should be, but overall enthused about the ability to improve things. I would like to think that's typical for most folks in "blue."
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
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  14. #43
    Member Array Sgt Z Squad's Avatar
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    I am not impressed with their sergeant. He is suppose to know the law, not the young guy.

    One of my young guys took a spring assisted opening knife from a motorist during a stop and then tried to tell me that it fit under the defiinition of a switch-blade, at which point I told him to give it back to the guy and send him on his way.

    Not a good scene, I can only tell you what the courts look for is: what was the officer's action based on? Good faith or gross negligence. I would lean on good faith but real close to negligence. That sergeant should have known the law. Not good supervision.
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  15. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt Z Squad View Post
    I am not impressed with their sergeant. He is suppose to know the law, not the young guy.

    One of my young guys took a spring assisted opening knife from a motorist during a stop and then tried to tell me that it fit under the defiinition of a switch-blade, at which point I told him to give it back to the guy and send him on his way.

    Not a good scene, I can only tell you what the courts look for is: what was the officer's action based on? Good faith or gross negligence. I would lean on good faith but real close to negligence. That sergeant should have known the law. Not good supervision.
    - Ugh. I'm also in CT and there's no way that I'm going to inform the Police Officer that I am armed. I don't see the point in doing it. I'd rather not incriminate myself or have a gun pulled on me.

    The cops in my town aren't exactly role models either with one being convicted of rape and another being suspended for using a taser on another cop while fooling around.

  16. #45
    Senior Member Array Landric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deanimator View Post
    If you arrest me for something, you'd BETTER know THAT law. If you falsely arrest me for something that's not a crime, I'm going to come after you without mercy and I WILL get my pound of flesh. If you don't like that, find another job. Actions have consequences.
    I don't disagree with the sentiment, but the problem is that the incident in question may not have been a false arrest. The statute in Texas is apparently unclear, and it seems that the DA felt there was enough to take the case to the grand jury, which means he felt there was probable cause (which is the standard for arrest). The grand jury didn't agree, but the grand jury is made up of citizens who may or may not know thing one about the law in general or the specific statute in question. Their failure to indict isn't going to hold a lot of water in civil court if the DA in question is willing to testify that in his legal opinion probable cause existed for the arrest.

    Suing the government, that has deep (tax dollar funded) pockets and lawyers on the payroll whether they are in court or not is a seriously uphill battle. I have a friend who tried it after he was wrongly terminated from a government job. He spent several years in and out of court and running up a mountain of legal fees. He won every step of the way (because he was right), but the government entity appealed every decision in order to drag out the process. In the end he was forced to settle because he was out of money, was still out of a job, and ended up with about $20,000 after paying all his bills. During the course of the suit he was forced to sell his truck and motorcycle to survive and move back in with his parents. He proved in court that another employee lied and filed a false report about what happened that resulted in his being terminated. That employee is not only still working there, he got promoted. My friend used his $20,000 to go back to school for nursing, but he will never be a cop again. His case was a lot more clear than the one in the article. I wish anyone who is wronged by the government the best of luck in getting their "pound of flesh", but the simple fact is that its a tough, long road.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I think Landric made some pretty good points in his post as I too wondered about a car so "done up" and what that possibly says about the driver.

    Landric is somewhat correct too, that the Texas legislature clearly intended for there to be some unspecified quantitative limit on OC. And, that really needs to be fixed because that ambiguity is one reason I long ago stopped carrying either OC or a knife-- the law on both just isn't clear and won't be till our Texas CHL becomes a CWP.
    Its a shame that you have to come to that decision. I don't agree that OC should be limited, and in the two states I have worked in as a LEO (VA and NC), OC isn't included in the list of items classified as concealed weapons. Both states being open carry jurisdictions, there are no general provisions that prohibit the general carrying of weapons. OC is an excellent tool for those situations were force is justified but deadly force isn't. Its not nearly as effective as a Taser, but it is much easier to carry and a lot cheaper. It also works a fair amount of time in my experience. Plus, carrying a Taser or like weapon in NC concealed is illegal, whereas OC is even allowed in places where weapons are prohibited, like college campuses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Still, looking at the overall picture I have to stand on this one with Pastor P and the others; including the Grand Jury.
    I don't disagree with their decision, provided the facts of the case are basically what the article represents, but I also don't feel that their failure to indict, in and of its self, makes the original arrest illegal or invalid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I have a question for the LEs here, and actually specifically for Landric as I really like the way he thinks.

    When LEs make an arrest that goes nowhere (for whatever reason), is there ever any supervisory hindsight applied to gain an understanding of what went wrong with case with the purpose of improving performance in the future? Or, do the suits in the dept. just grumble about the DA and the jurors and the judge?
    The simple answer, which is really no answer at all, is "it depends". Sometimes arrests that get tossed for one reason or another result in retraining, reprimands, changes in policy, etc. Most of the time though, they don't, at least in my experience. The reason, at least in my jurisdiction seems to be that the DA throws out cases all the time for which logical reason exists for their dismissal. That is pretty standard across the justice system, but in North Carolina it seems to be a lot more common. Since the powers that be at the PDs and SOs are used to perfectly good cases being thrown out for no reason, when a bad case gets chucked the general opinion is the same. Unless someone from the DA's office brings the case to the attention of the PD or SO nothing gets done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Kinda curious because my dad made his living as a designer. When stuff didn't sell he and the salesmen pointed fingers at each other. He grumbled that the salesmen stank, and they grumbled that he made lousy designs.

    When a case like this one goes south, what happens in the dept. to avoid a similar thing in the future, or does everyone just grumble?
    Part of the problem is human nature. Very few people are good at accepting responsibility for their mistakes. Everyone likes to blame someone else or explain away the mistake that puts them in the best light. I understand it, heck I'm guilty of it myself sometimes, but that doesn't make it right.

    There seems to be this perception that somehow LE officers are more rigid, out for glory, etc. in much higher numbers than they were in the past. Its fun to rant about that on the internet, but that doesn't mean there is much basis in fact. Obviously there are some abuses, I wouldn't deny that. Given today's technology, such abuses reported at much higher levels than they were in the past. Look at the original story as posted by the OP. In 1955, heck 1995, how many people would have read that story?

    We are more restricted and much more responsible for our actions than we were during the "officer friendly" days. I've been a cop for 13 years. In just that time I have seen things that would be considered acceptable in 1996 when I started get an officer fired in 2009.

    Much like the majority of gun owners, who are not criminals, the majority of cops are trying to make a positive difference. There are a minority of both groups that do stupid things and give everyone a bad name.

    I could say a lot more on the subject, but its late and I'm tired, so I'll end with this: Our system is far from perfect, but where, anywhere in the world, is there a better system?
    -Landric

    "The Engine could still smile...it seemed to scare them" -Felix

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