What do you say?

This is a discussion on What do you say? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Rob72 I suppose what I'm asking/saying is: have you considered non-invitational, preemptory, verbal direction, as part of your arsenal? What options do ...

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Thread: What do you say?

  1. #16
    Member Array Gary Brommeland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72
    I suppose what I'm asking/saying is: have you considered non-invitational, preemptory, verbal direction, as part of your arsenal? What options do you have besides, "May I help you? What can I do for you?" How do you verbalize, without socially engaging?

    OK, I see where you are going here. Certainly, a forceful command to "Back Off!!" has its place. I have in fact done this on more than a few occasions (along with "That's close enough!!" "Show me your hands!!" - as it is appropriate). Most folks are startled, look at me like I'm a serial killer and quickly walk off - but I will absolutely not allow the pressure of "social norms" to compel me into making a really stupid mistake that endangers myself and/or my family. A couple of guys have stood there for a second or two, seemingly trying to evaluate the situation and deciding what to do next. (Probable BG's)But, thus far, no shots fired (Thank God!)

    I used to be "nicer" when I was younger. Experience has taught me to treat all strangers as possible assailants.

    Using your example - if approached and asked the time, my response would be to put an obstacle (like a parked car) between us and forcefully answer the question, while maintaining eye contact.


    I am just suggesting that the use of profanity may come back to bite you if you end up with a jury with little old church ladies on it.

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  3. #17
    New Member Array Jimster's Avatar
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    Bases on your scenario that you gave, I see no weapon, I only am wary, and I'd have to go along with JIGGZ01....I don't pull my weapon from my holster unless I have already made up my mind I have to kill someone. I would absolutely have to see a knife, a gun, or a ball bat or something to feel there was a threat to my life.
    Concerning the shady character asking me the time of day, I look right at him, in the eyes and tell him the time of day, or I tell him I don't have the time of day. I don't get loud, I don't threaten him in any way at all, but look right at him with an air of confidence.
    If the distance closes and I don't feel comfy, I'll have to deal with that another way, maybe get ready for something phisical...
    The one thing I won't do is pull my weapon unless I'm going to use it. Period. Once I make up my mind someone has to die, the BG is going to have to be very fast at giving up, because I must have already seen a knife or gun...I sometimes doubt if it would even be possible for him to give up that fast, short of falling to the ground imediatley, or screaming please don't shoot...and that would have to be a pretty fast decision on his part once I see a leathal weapon.

    I think you have to play these things out by ear if they happen, lots of scenarios...but the one givin in the original post, nobody saw a gun or knife. I'm going by that.

  4. #18
    Senior Member Array tanksoldier's Avatar
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    I'm no lawyer, but I don't see how any DA can claim "malice aforethought" when the BG drew his knife on you first. In any case, it's irrelevant to me here in Colorado. Good shoot's a good shoot, thank God.

    For others in less blessed states, the last part is certainly true.

    Quote Originally Posted by BCurry1
    I'm with Solo, if you yell, Stop or im going to shoot, a jury could take this as malice aforethoght. /snip/ The only thing I know for sure is afterward your gonna need a good attorney.
    "I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

  5. #19
    Senior Member Array Tom357's Avatar
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    Going strictly by your scenario, if I don't trust the situation, then I don't have the time. My answer to "Do you have the time" is "No." Then, I alter course to maintain distance.

    I was approached in Barcelona by a kid asking the time and trying to get close enough to pick my pockets. I didn't have time or inclination to spend the rest of the day with the Guardia. Because of the location, I couldn't avoid having him get closer than I would have liked. I ended up having to give him a forceful shove to get clear. Since then, I don't let a stranger get that close with a ruse like that. I just don't have the time or don't have what they need.
    - Tom
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  6. #20
    Senior Member Array tanksoldier's Avatar
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    Really? So if I'm unarmed I can just walk up to you, and take your gun away (assuming, or course I know you have one somehow) or perhaps punch you out with my fist, search your body for a wallet, find the gun and take it... perhaps shooting you with it... because you won't shoot an unarmed man?

    Useful info to somebody I'm sure. Interesting that my being unarmed negates your weapon completely.

    Because you carry a gun, there comes a time when even an unarmed assailant is a deadly threat.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jimster
    Bases on your scenario that you gave, I see no weapon, I only am wary, and I'd have to go along with JIGGZ01....I don't pull my weapon from my holster unless I have already made up my mind I have to kill someone. I would absolutely have to see a knife, a gun, or a ball bat or something to feel there was a threat to my life.
    "I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

  7. #21
    Member Array Gary Brommeland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimster
    Bases on your scenario that you gave, I see no weapon, I only am wary, and I'd have to go along with JIGGZ01....I don't pull my weapon from my holster unless I have already made up my mind I have to kill someone. I would absolutely have to see a knife, a gun, or a ball bat or something to feel there was a threat to my life.
    A skilled boxer, martial artist or street fighter can kill you pretty effortlessly, and take only a second or two to do it. Your approach is suicidal, IMHO.

  8. #22
    Member Array Rocnerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Brommeland
    OK, I see where you are going here. Certainly, a forceful command to "Back Off!!" has its place. I have in fact done this on more than a few occasions (along with "That's close enough!!" "Show me your hands!!" - as it is appropriate).
    This is what I was thinking about when I started this. Each situation is different, but in this one the guy is shady, its night, and in a dark parking lot. I think yelling BACK OFF! That's close enough and let me see your hands is perfect. I don't think I would act this way given a different setting, say a not so shady person in daylight asking me the time.

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    There is a time to talk and there is a time to shoot. When it it time to talk, talk. When it is time to shoot, shoot. When it is time to talk, don't shoot. When it is time to shoot, don't talk.

    Of all the events of shooting in self defense I have heard from people that have worn the T-shirt, none of them said anything Dirty Harry-like or macho prior to shooting their attackers. They told me they thought they would have said something cool to warn them, but it never happened they were so scared.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  10. #24
    Member Array Trade_Sniper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tanksoldier
    Really? So if I'm unarmed I can just walk up to you, and take your gun away (assuming, or course I know you have one somehow) or perhaps punch you out with my fist, search your body for a wallet, find the gun and take it... perhaps shooting you with it... because you won't shoot an unarmed man?

    Useful info to somebody I'm sure. Interesting that my being unarmed negates your weapon completely.

    Because you carry a gun, there comes a time when even an unarmed assailant is a deadly threat.
    I have to agree. I have seen guys that weren't skilled boxers, martial artists, etc., quickly jump on someone and nearly beat them to death, including armed, uniformed LEO's. It very easily could have been to death if they weren't in a hurry to get away, it was purely their decision to stop because the other person was completely incapacitated, I mean beaten till their skull was mushy.

    Its dark, in a parking lot, which offers a possible bad guy some measure of seclusion and he is a 'shady' looking stranger, thats the end of his closing. I can't remember where I heard these 'phrases' at, and I'm not sure I have the second one right, but it was something like (said LOUDLY and FIRMLY) "I CAN'T HELP YOU SIR!" "DON'T COME ANY CLOSER", repeated over and over. I would put distance and objects between myself and the person while repeating these phrases, moving my hand to my holstered weapon. If he continued to close at this point, I have to assume he has the worst of intentions and I would draw. A non-BG would quickly either be offended and/or think I was psycho (either of which I can live with), then leave, probably quickly, as soon as I started loudly repeating the warnings.

    I'd rather be safe, take my chances with a brandishing charge if it came to that, than to end up in the newspaper obit's.

    I didn't use offensive language and I gave him repeated, loud warnings while trying to move away from him, so in my mind, he's coming with the intent to do serious bodily harm or worse.
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  11. #25
    New Member Array Jimster's Avatar
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    "A skilled boxer, martial artist or street fighter can kill you pretty effortlessly, and take only a second or two to do it. Your approach is suicidal, IMHO." posted by Gary Brommeland....

    Once again, if I pull my gun I'm going to use it.
    I run 20 miles a week, and work out several times a week, and am no slouch either.
    I don't think it's a good idea to pull your gun out and point it at someone that "looks scary"....if this is what your advising, I would advise against it for obvious reasons.
    If you think a person is a deadly threat even though there are NO weapons...it's a different scenario than what was orginaly posted...and I would say it's pretty easy on these forums to get a bit carried away with scenarios.
    Also, in real life you can pretty much size up the situation, or you should be able to.
    Is the person approaching me and asking me the time a pot bellied teen with his pants hanging half off him, or is it a person who has good posture and appears to be in somewhat good shape...it was not mentioned at all, and there are ways to figure out and size up a situation.

    I can't go along with pulling out a gun and pointing at someone because they "look shady"....according to the original post, this is all it is....
    Anyone pulls their gun, best be using it...otherwise, leave it where it's at.

    If we drew down on everyone that looked shady, there would not be as many permit holders...I do believe the cops frown on pulling a gun and pointing at unarmed people.

    I'd say if someone scares you with the way they look, make distance between you, or just run if you think you can't handle the situation, we all are different in what we can do in real life if it gets phisical, I understand that also.
    Bottom line is...my gun won't come out unless someone is going to die. I think I can figure out when that is, I'm pretty alert to what's going on around me.

    Just my opinion....they vary for sure

  12. #26
    Member Array clt46910's Avatar
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    If I decide it is time to pull my gun, I am not going to say anything. I am going to shoot. Any thing I had to say should have already been said. Until I have to use deadly force, I don't want anyone knowing I have that capability. So there would be no warning of any kind.

  13. #27
    Member Array Gary Brommeland's Avatar
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    Jimster,
    You apparantly did not understand what I was trying to say. I'l try to be more clear- I NEVER advocated drawing a firearm on someone who just appeared to be "shady". NEVER did I say anything remotely like that. What I DID say was that you should NEVER allow an individual to approach within about 25 feet. (Bare Minimum)

    The reason? Because a skilled streetfighter, boxer or martial artist can kill you in a second or two with a single well delivered strike, and none of your weight lifting, jogging or jazzercise is gonna add a single second to your life. It takes about 6FT lbs of pressure to kill a man (including one who can bench press 400+lbs, run a marathon and can leap tall buildings in a single bound) - if it is delivered quickly and accurately. And I've got news for ya - a lot of the folks who can do that might just be pot bellied old farts who are crippled up with arthritis and have trouble "jogging" the length of their car. It is about skill, focus and willingness. What I am trying to get thru to you is that you are wrong, and it can get you killed. I am trying to save your life.

    FWIW, statistically, you WILL draw down on several people before actually shooting an attacker. That is statistical fact. Your statement to the effect that "if I draw it someone is going to die" shows a total lack of professional training and it will get you hung out to dry if you ever are involved in a defensive situation. Find a good instructor and book a class.

  14. #28
    New Member Array Jimster's Avatar
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    I guess I'm the same way, I don't want anyone knowing I have a 45 auto either until it's time to use it.

    I'm just going by the original post...
    Of course in a different scenario I would do something different.
    I was just going by the original post...some guy is walking toward you (I think he said down an asile)
    and asking the time of day...and he looks shady, but no weapons. He's getting closer....
    All situations are different and people are all different.
    OK...if Bruce Lee is walking toward me and asking the time...I guess I'm in for it.....LOL!!
    I just don't see me drawing down on someone in the situation provided in the original post.
    And I think the original thought was, should something be said, or yelled...or whatever.
    I'm all for communication of some type....if the situation warrents it...depends on how I have sized up everything.

    We could play it out a million different ways, it's already gotton to the point where I'm commiting suicide...I was hoping the person was a snot nosed teen with his pants hanging down...LOL!!!

    At any rate, all good stuff, and lots to think about.
    If I don't play the situation out right, my time might very well be up....but if I pull my gun, someone elses time is up for sure....no waiting, no warnings, no playing around....I must have seen something worth killing for, or sensed something worth killing for.

    Just be alert all the time...that might keep us all safer and avoid most problems.

  15. #29
    Member Array jclif1995's Avatar
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    i would right into the eye of the bad guy, and in my best Italian mob Don voice say: "yu talkin ta me?"
    john

  16. #30
    New Member Array Jimster's Avatar
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    Gary Brommeland....I sure don't want to seem like I don't take advice, and I sure do know a skilled fighter can take you out fast, no problem there.
    As far as classes, spent some bucks on those too....all of which say if you draw, you best intend to use it.
    Of course there are times when you will draw on someone too, been there, had to do that....and yes, my intention was to kill, but they gave up REAL fast, so I guess I must have been agreeing with you all long...depend on the scenario I guess.
    My probem seems to be reading the original post...and just going by that.

    No problem here. Thanks for the advice, it's always welcome, and many of us out here have went above and beyond in taking classes.

    Could be I misunderstood the first post, and also misunderstood you when you said I'd be commiting suicide, or maybe we misunderstood each other...

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