What do you say?

This is a discussion on What do you say? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Perception is also a vital part of staying safe. Walk with your shoulders back and head up, and I hate to say this, but walk ...

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Thread: What do you say?

  1. #31
    Senior Member Array BlueLion's Avatar
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    Perception is also a vital part of staying safe. Walk with your shoulders back and head up, and I hate to say this, but walk like you own the place when you are out because bad guys watch your body language to determine if you are worth taking a risk over. Secondly, they interview if they are unsure. They ask for the time or something like that and they then react.

    You can't second guess your decision to pull and fire because that second can get you killed. So, always be aware of your surroundings and if it happends don't think about lawyers and stuff, just think about seeing your family again and focus, squeeze, and move. Thirdly, if you squeeze get off line don't stand they to see if the shots hit because this gives them time to react on whatever juice they have left. Heck, I would even run if I did not have any cover to get behind.
    Listen, Think and React.....Nuff Said.....

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  3. #32
    Senior Member Array David III's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Brommeland
    What I DID say was that you should NEVER allow an individual to approach within about 25 feet. (Bare Minimum)

    The reason? Because a skilled streetfighter, boxer or martial artist can kill you in a second or two with a single well delivered strike - a lot of the folks who can do that might just be pot bellied old farts who are crippled up with arthritis and have trouble "jogging" the length of their car. It is about skill, focus and willingness.
    FWIW, statistically, you WILL draw down on several people before actually shooting an attacker. That is statistical fact.
    I'll toss 2 cents in here (sorry, Gary, if I've edited incorrectly). I spent several years training three or four times a week with some really skilled people. I have been completely run over and smashed into the ground while I was pointing a training firearm right at one of these guys --- when I knew he was trying to get to me and I was ready. He was about 20 feet away. This happened to me so much that it was sad. These days, I'm old, beat up and limp a lot, but I have scared people badly with how fast I can get right to them. It's focus and willingness.
    I do not know what I've said before a potentially serious altercation, mostly because people tend to be more afraid of me than anything else and I don't remember saying anything. Guess it pays to look mean and ugly.
    But, in my limited experience, once my firearm is drawn, the other side wants away in a hurry and that's fine with me. I hope statistics stay on my side.
    I never, never allow any potential threat within about 25 feet of me (or I sure as heck try not to). I also am a big fan of motor vehicles and work hard to keep one in between me and the other person. I figure if a determined attacker gets inside that range, I am in bad trouble. Gun or not, and gun probably won't matter at that point until or if I can get the attacker backed up enough to draw.
    Anyway, my opinions only and good thing we can all get together here and learn from each other.

  4. #33
    Senior Member Array David III's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueLion
    Perception is also a vital part of staying safe. Walk with your shoulders back and head up, and I hate to say this, but walk like you own the place when you are out because bad guys watch your body language to determine if you are worth taking a risk over. Secondly, they interview if they are unsure. They ask for the time or something like that and they then react.
    Sorry for the double post, but BlueLion posted while I was typing, so I didn't see this -- I have been told this by more law enforcement and other professionals than I can count and I absolutely believe it. Has probably kept me from getting beat up or worse many times. If you look like a sheep.....
    BlueLion -- great advice.

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array ELCruisr's Avatar
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    I think that how we can present ourselves can, sometimes, prevent a situation. I remember one little Japanese instructor in his late sixties. He just struck you as someone you might not want to cross. One time a gang of 5 young men tried to jump him. He said they were just misguided young men (tongue in cheek) so he didn't really hurt them to much. They picked the wrong guy that night! His first weapon was his yell. I learned from him just how devastating a yell could be. When he yelled you froze for about a second. It was a viscous, primal thing that was hard to desribe. I saw high ranking black belts wilt for that second when he yelled and that was the time he needed to subdue them. Even when you knew it was coming you couldn't help it.

    Another good trainer in street defense said to always look confident and in control, whether or not you feel it. Make your commands to stay back, etc. with force, not fear. Better to hurt feelings than be dead. I spent some time as a sarge and I know how to give a forcefull command. It has worked in tight spots in the past. His other advice that I remembered is when it comes time to react you explode. This was directed at unarmed conflict but he meant to yell, move and act with force and decisiveness. This often makes a predator lose heart as he has a tiger instead of a cowering victim.

    With a few more years under my belt I feel that it is vital to be a person who can size up a situation on the fly and make good choices under duress in a snap. That's one reason why I'm glad some people I know DON'T carry.

    Keep alert, watch your six and avoid trouble when possible. When you can't, act and act decisevely. If it happens we will have to answer for our actions so we need to think out reality and how we will face it as much as we can in advance. Don't rely on movies, popular culture or a high opinion of yourself for your approach. Get all the info you can get from people who know and be prepared for reality if it ever comes down to it....

    My two bits worth.......

    Eric

  6. #35
    Member Array Rocnerd's Avatar
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    Ok, I have learned,
    In this situation it would be best to just get out of that lane and put cars in between you and the "shady guy" (have moved into orange)

    If he comes towards me a strong command of "BACK OFF!" or "THAT'S CLOSE ENOUGH!" coupled with "LET ME SEE YOUR HANDS!" could be useful.

    If the yell doesn't work you may be justified in pulling your pistol. If you do pull your gun, don't just pull it in hopes of scaring away the BG. If you draw be ready to use it, but just because you draw doesn't mean you have to use it.

  7. #36
    Senior Member Array Exodus's Avatar
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    Well, I think my opinion has already been covered by several members, but here's my two cents anyways:

    1. Be mindful of the 21 foot rule. Especially considering that most people who CCW cannot use quick draw holsters becuase of the need of concealment. Even with a quick draw holsters, the 21 foot rule still applies.
    2. Check your six! (I think ElCruiser was the first to mention this). Make sure the "shady character" isn't the point man for a pack of trouble.
    3. Maintain posture and give commands with authority, but be civil (if not polite).
    4. Put obstructions between you and the "shady character". If they have to go around a car, then that buys you time.
    5. Consider non-lethal approaches if the "SC" continues to approach. (OC in your off-hand?)
    6. If #5 isn't your style (for whatever reason) position for a draw (or if you are concealed, draw) without presenting. Continue to issue commands.
    7. If the sitiuation continues to escalate, do what you have to do. Draw, issue a final command, shoot if necessary.

    While I do understand that you must only draw if the situation requires it, and be prepared to shoot, looking down the barrel of a gun should help convine the BG that you are not a worthy victim. Departing from the given situation here a bit (or fast forwarding to confirmation that the "shady character" is a BG. If they are approaching to do harm with a knife or fists, then you should draw (some may argue that learning other self defense techniques are necessary to react appropriately, but I feel that I should react with the way the guarantees my safety, and that means the BG with the knife is 22 feet away and staring down the barrel of my .45 - although I do study kendo, kenpo and have studied several HtH arts in the past). If the BG is a threat, then drawing may save both our lives. If I allow someone to approach with a knife after giving all the proper commands, because I think I can "take him" (which I have practiced), then there is a good chance that he'll kill me, or I will have to kill him to end the confrontation. Drawing, on the other hand, is more likely to cause the BG to surrender, or run. I certainly do not advocate waving your gun at every shady character who "asks for the time" (or whatever), but be aware that the safety of you and yours is paramount (and enlightened discussion before had helps us all).

    Hope I've added something constructive. And please forgive me if I forgot something (I've got to stop posting right after falling out of bed)
    Last edited by Exodus; April 28th, 2006 at 08:41 PM.
    "To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic." Ted Nugent

    SIC VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM.

  8. #37
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    8. Stand bladed with your gunside away.

    A spin off of others, the initial speech from the shady character is always responded with a slightly louder tone. Talk as if you are hard of hearing, not comically, just a little louder. Usually if you are asking a question to their "do you have the time, etc" and ask What? a little louder than they asked the question, it shows confidence and is, IMO, slightly intimidating. This has done me wonders over time.

    You casually ask someone the time and they ask you What? a little louder than you asked them, and I think Holy crap, alrighty then and move on. Granted, I am not criminal scum.

    I was walking a (pizza) delivery across the street and down three buildings. One way street, single lane, touching buildings. We don't charge for delivery on the street we are on so if I don't get mileage, I walk it over, unless to a bar (then I disarm in my truck). I cross the street and some drunk comes up to me ( 6 bars within 4 blocks) and asks "Let me have $5." I pulled out my flashlight and shined it in his face and asked a little louder than he did "What was that?". He said Just kidding around man, don't hurt me. I said Go back in the bar and enjoy the rest of your night.

    He thanked me and I went on to deliver, using the reflection off of nearby business front windows to check my six (as I looked over the pizza bag in my left hand to shield my looking) to see if he was going to come up behind me.

    Probably the combo of my body language, flashlight in his face, and my louder, stern tone took care of that one.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  9. #38
    Member Array Trade_Sniper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus
    ...
    While I do understand that you must only draw if the situation requires it, and be prepared to shoot, looking down the barrel of a gun should help convine the BG that you are not a worthy victim.
    I read something within the last week, don't remember where, I think it was either an article called "The Threatened Citizen" or Plus P Technology's website. And of course I take everything I read on the internet with a grain of salt, but it said that 1-2.5 million violent encounters are diffused every year by only drawing. And as we've discussed here, that figure could be higher because all of these encounters aren't reported.

    You have to be prepared to use your weapon before you ever strap it on, but we also have to remember that every encounter will be a series assessments and reassessments, there are no cut and dried rules. Lethal force is always the last choice.
    *** IN CASE OF EMERGENCY, DIAL - 1911 ***

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  10. #39
    Senior Member Array Exodus's Avatar
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    Freakshow....Bladed? I'm not familiar with the term, unless you mean "having a blade drawn"....nice story by the way. The flashlight is also a very good option. Tone and volume of voice is also a good thing to consider. And, like Trade Sniper said, there are no cut and dry rules. So practice, practice practice. Discussion is very good. These scenarios are always interesting. They allow us to find out what we would do, and get many different takes on the situation.
    "To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic." Ted Nugent

    SIC VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM.

  11. #40
    Member Array mcclearypl's Avatar
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    Hello All I have to jump in on this one. If the bad guy is inside the 25 foot zone and is trained at all he will hurt you before you can get a weapon on him. That said taking out a BG is like landing a damaged aircraft you keep on trying to fly and control the situation until the bullet leaves the gun or the plane stops moving and you have no more input. I would in all cases make my warnings loud and clear while moving to place something between me and the BG. I would continue to warn until I made the descision to shoot. Then I would call the police and my legal beagle and follow his advice to the letter.
    Philip L. McCleary
    Security via CCW
    and a lot of practice
    Dispatchers have the best jobs
    we tell the police where to go and they have
    to do it. Policy manual says so.

    de N4LNE

  12. #41
    Member Array country85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SOLOLUCKY
    Well ya sure don't yell "back off or i'll shoot you" cuz in court all a witness will be able to testify to is you said you shoot him and sure enough you did!

    something like 'back off! get away from me!" repeatedly so any witness can say "...he told him to get away then i heard a gunshot"
    whatever it takes to 'sound' better in court is very important to me.
    Good advise because otherwise the first thing witnesses may notice is the sound of the gun shot and not anything leading up to it.

  13. #42
    Senior Member Array PapaScout's Avatar
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    Exodus,

    I believe what was meant by bladed is to present the smallest target to your potential assailant. Weak shoulder first, as it were.

    All,

    I've never been in a situation where I've needed to say anything (touch wood) but I've enjoyed reading from those who have.

    PapaScout (aka Ron)
    "If you so much as bunny hop I'll cut your heart out!" Billy Bob Thornton in The Last Real Cowboys

    "I carry a gun for the same reason that I carry health insurance and a cell phone - be prepared."

  14. #43
    Member Array Only Glock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Brommeland
    Jimster,
    ...
    FWIW, statistically, you WILL draw down on several people before actually shooting an attacker. That is statistical fact. Your statement to the effect that "if I draw it someone is going to die" shows a total lack of professional training and it will get you hung out to dry if you ever are involved in a defensive situation. Find a good instructor and book a class.
    I couldn't agree more, Gary.

    Jimster, I am not claiming to be an expert, I am only drawing from my training and experience as a cop. Many times (most of the time) the threat will stop once deadly force is displayed, and you show the confidence and training to use it. At that point, you are no longer justified in using deadly force.

    I had an experience of having a suspect armed with a knife approaching me in a very threatening manner, waving the knife like he knew how to use it. I drew down, identified myself and ordered him repeatedly to drop it or I would shoot (there was some rough language thrown in, I was not polite), forcefully and loudly enough for half of Knoxville to hear, while moving and using parked cars for cover. I could have legally fired my weapon at any point and ended the threat. When I could no longer use cover, I calmly decided and told him that if he took another step I would shoot. Something made him clear his head at this point and he finally dropped the knife. He was told in no uncertain terms by several other officers that if it had been them, we would be waiting on the detectives to release his body.

    My point in this long story is this: training, practice, confidence and restraint kept me from getting injured, and kept this idiot from dying. The purpose of deadly force was accomplished without it being actually used. So, I totally disagree with anyone who says when I draw my weapon, I am going to use it. I think more appropriately, it would (and should) be said that when I draw my weapon, I am willing to use it if the situation escalates to that point. True, I would rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6, but I would prefer neither.

    Charlie

  15. #44
    TUG
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    good,logical thinking "Tug"

  16. #45
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    Stop Police!!!!!

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