A VICTORY FOR CC & Self Protection - Page 2

A VICTORY FOR CC & Self Protection

This is a discussion on A VICTORY FOR CC & Self Protection within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; My spine is nice and straight and strong, as it grew it turned me into a man, a man that knows right from wrong, a ...

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Thread: A VICTORY FOR CC & Self Protection

  1. #16
    Member Array BriNik's Avatar
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    My spine is nice and straight and strong, as it grew it turned me into a man, a man that knows right from wrong, a man that does not go around antagonizing confrontation because I have a gun. When you choose to carry you know full well that every argument you get into will involve at least one gun. I will give you that the guy acted like an ass from the start, I might even go as far as to say that she may have been justified in her decision to fire in the finial seconds. BUT if she had used even an ounce of restraint and what I call reasonable judgment it would have ended with him and the bus driving off.
    But what do I know, I guess next time that guy cuts me off driving down the road I should scream, swear and flip him off, maybe cut him off and slam on my breaks. That way when he follows me and walks up to my truck at a red light I can blow him away and it can be justified as just taking dirt bad off the street. I just hope he doesn’t try to take my seat at the movie theater.
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  2. #17
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    i am shocked that anyone would be surprised that she was held while the police determined whether she should be charged and i would not have been surprised if she was charged....she continued to provoke the man even after the incident was over...enough for him to make the foolish decision to get off a bus he had decided to stay on after she left it...her and her family continued on and in a sense baited the man into a violent confrontation...

    not the way anyone would expect a concealed weapon license holder to behave by any means...the victory almost becomes a precident in that it allowed a gun carrying person to escalate what may have been an innocent mishap into a defensive shooting...

    he fell on her in the bus...she was mad and pushed him off...if i were to guess it wasnt a helpful push...it turned into a verbal argument with some nasty language...she and others with her continued the argument even after leaving the bus...why?...because she was armed and didnt have anything to worry about?...

    i guess next time somebody bumps her on the street she might try it again...maybe another victory?...or will this one have a gun and shoot her when she gets aggressive toward them?...

    advice...say it in your head before you say it out loud....

  3. #18
    Member Array Gibber's Avatar
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    Let me get this straight. Woman has cuss fight with man, spurs it on, gets off bus and still, without being presented with deadly force or some means to do her grave bodily harm, she shoots him? What the heck? And, gets off?

    Sorry folks, this flat-out, does not cut it in my book. Pepper spray yes, gun, no.
    At least here in TN, to use deadly force [gun] you must first be presented with deadly force or truly believe that you are going to suffer great bodily harm [not a bruise but broken bones, concussion, etc.].
    I simply can not believe what I have read in some of these postings.

  4. #19
    Member Array dylistn's Avatar
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    Best defence is avoiding confrontation. By ******* this guy off she endagered her children. What would she have done if this guy pulled at 9mm or 45 and emptied it her direction? She or her children could have died for confronting a nutcase. Great that it worked out ok. But better to avoid danger, especialy when children are present.

  5. #20
    Distinguished Member Array nutz4utwo's Avatar
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    for a detailed explanation see the prosecutor's press release:

    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABP...2010398750.pdf

    I agree with their decision.
    "a reminder that no law can replace personal responsibility" - Bill Clinton 2010.

  6. #21
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Instead of judging her actions maybe we should judge his. Maybe if he wasn't being the fool he wouldn't have gotten shot. Shouldn't both sides be held accountable for their actions?

  7. #22
    Member Array paul1968mcr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    Instead of judging her actions maybe we should judge his. Maybe if he wasn't being the fool he wouldn't have gotten shot. Shouldn't both sides be held accountable for their actions?
    Quite correct they should, though playing the fool should not end up with you getting shot!

    I dont think this particular case does us as CC'ers any favours at all.....what were the anti's cries when CC became available "petty arguments will turn into gunfights" *Ahem* what just happened!! The woman showed complete immaturity, goading the guy after the situation was effectively over, then over reacting when it all went wrong for her.

    We just had a woman get 10 years I believe in Indiana for shooting a biker in the chest, wounding him, after they had a traffic "altercation" and he got off his bike and "stormed" over to her car....BANG!

    "Gravest Extreme" don't think so.

  8. #23
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    wow..because she didnt initiate the physical encounter it seems that her effort to continue it even after leaving the bus gave her an opportunity to excersize her right to stand fast and fire away...

    for the record i think the guy she shot was an idiot for continuing his approach at her especially after she warned him and displayed....but i cant get past the fact that she almost purposely baited him into it...

    yes...both parties have to be responsible for their actions...but being armed doesnt shouldnt give you the right to entice someone who has already proven to be less than civil with you...

  9. #24
    Senior Member Array Rob P.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gibber View Post
    Let me get this straight. Woman has cuss fight with man, spurs it on, gets off bus and still, without being presented with deadly force or some means to do her grave bodily harm, she shoots him? What the heck? And, gets off?

    Sorry folks, this flat-out, does not cut it in my book. Pepper spray yes, gun, no.
    At least here in TN, to use deadly force [gun] you must first be presented with deadly force or truly believe that you are going to suffer great bodily harm [not a bruise but broken bones, concussion, etc.].
    I simply can not believe what I have read in some of these postings.
    I think that you need to go back and re-read the article.

    Woman with kids on bus gets accosted by rude aggressive guy. Woman gets off the bus and yells and gestures at rude guy. Rude guy gets off bus and proceeds to attack woman with kids. Woman shoots rude guy who recovers.

    Analysis:
    1) Woman avoided more direct confrontation by getting off bus. ie: retreated to perceived safety.
    2) Woman yelled and gestured at bus. Now some may think this was egging rude guy on BUT "words alone are not sufficient to allow physical assault/battery" is a general rule in just about every jurisdiction. If they were, then just about every fistfight could be called self defense by an aggressor who didn't like your tone of voice. Thus, rude guy had no legal provocation to "attack" the woman.
    3) Woman had already retreated. Rude guy then exits the bus after her. Woman is fully justified in believing that rude guy is escalating the situation after she retreated. ie; rude guy had last clear chance of keeping the situation to a yelling/finger flinging incident but took it to the next level. Woman believed that she was in direct danger by someone who was intentionally increasing her risk of perceived harm.
    4) Don't forget about the fact that the woman had her kids with her. Mom & kids wins over aggressive adult male who continues the incident after mom & kids retreat.

    I do not think this was stupid on her part. Yes, she probably could have handled it better but that is Monday morning quarterbacking by those who were not there. And again, I wonder why she was held for 2 days before being released. Lawyering up doesn't do it in my mind. The WITNESSES at the scene verified her story and an investigation should not have taken 2 days. A couple of/few hours in an interview room while LEO complete their on-scene investigation should have done it. If LEO couldn't have figured out what happened after a couple of hours talking to witnesses and compiling their reports they weren't doing their jobs correctly.

  10. #25
    Member Array TH48's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob P. View Post
    I think that you need to go back and re-read the article.

    Woman with kids on bus gets accosted by rude aggressive guy. Woman gets off the bus and yells and gestures at rude guy. Rude guy gets off bus and proceeds to attack woman with kids. Woman shoots rude guy who recovers.

    Analysis:
    1) Woman avoided more direct confrontation by getting off bus. ie: retreated to perceived safety.
    2) Woman yelled and gestured at bus. Now some may think this was egging rude guy on BUT "words alone are not sufficient to allow physical assault/battery" is a general rule in just about every jurisdiction. If they were, then just about every fistfight could be called self defense by an aggressor who didn't like your tone of voice. Thus, rude guy had no legal provocation to "attack" the woman.
    3) Woman had already retreated. Rude guy then exits the bus after her. Woman is fully justified in believing that rude guy is escalating the situation after she retreated. ie; rude guy had last clear chance of keeping the situation to a yelling/finger flinging incident but took it to the next level. Woman believed that she was in direct danger by someone who was intentionally increasing her risk of perceived harm.
    4) Don't forget about the fact that the woman had her kids with her. Mom & kids wins over aggressive adult male who continues the incident after mom & kids retreat.

    I do not think this was stupid on her part. Yes, she probably could have handled it better but that is Monday morning quarterbacking by those who were not there. And again, I wonder why she was held for 2 days before being released. Lawyering up doesn't do it in my mind. The WITNESSES at the scene verified her story and an investigation should not have taken 2 days. A couple of/few hours in an interview room while LEO complete their on-scene investigation should have done it. If LEO couldn't have figured out what happened after a couple of hours talking to witnesses and compiling their reports they weren't doing their jobs correctly.
    If she cared about her kids she wouldn't have been fostering trouble while they were in her presence.
    The right thing to do would have been to keep her mouth shut and quietly gotten of the bus with her family. The BG would have eventually gotten his due.
    To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them. Richard Henry Lee 1788

  11. #26
    Member Array Bm7b5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    This was not smart, nor illegal, but contributes to the facts of the case surrounding the victims actions contributing to the shooting...instigating the incident. These kinds of actions can cause problems in almost any state.
    She was certainly within her right of SD, but didn't make it easy, and it doesn't sound like she let a lawyer do her talking.
    Glad she will be OK and that the dirtbag got what he really deserved.
    Actually, her actions may have been illegal:

    RCW 9A.84.030: Disorderly conduct.

    RCW 9A.84.030
    Disorderly conduct.

    (1) A person is guilty of disorderly conduct if the person:

    (a) Uses abusive language and thereby intentionally creates a risk of assault;


    (2) Disorderly conduct is a misdemeanor.
    A traffic ticket is formal recognition of a lapse in situational awareness.

  12. #27
    Senior Member Array Rob P.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TH48 View Post
    If she cared about her kids she wouldn't have been fostering trouble while they were in her presence.
    The right thing to do would have been to keep her mouth shut and quietly gotten of the bus with her family. [b]The BG would have eventually gotten his due.]/b]
    The bad guy DID get his "due".

  13. #28
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob P. View Post
    I think that you need to go back and re-read the article.

    Woman with kids on bus gets accosted by rude aggressive guy.

    you need to reread also...woman gets into verbal argument with the rude aggressive guy...sorry to monday morning quarterback but by the accounts in the article i'm pretty sure her language didnt set a great example for her children or do anything to deescalate the situation...she sounds like a pretty willing participant...accosted!...

    Woman gets off the bus and yells and gestures at rude guy.

    unneccesarily continuing an argument that should be over by now...but again...the kids probably need this kind of example...after all...mommy carries a gun and doesnt get to use it near enough...

    Rude guy gets off bus and proceeds to attack woman with kids. Woman shoots rude guy who recovers.

    Analysis:
    1) Woman avoided more direct confrontation by getting off bus. ie: retreated to perceived safety.

    she got off at her stop...(?)...

    2) Woman yelled and gestured at bus. Now some may think this was egging rude guy on BUT "words alone are not sufficient to allow physical assault/battery" is a general rule in just about every jurisdiction. If they were, then just about every fistfight could be called self defense by an aggressor who didn't like your tone of voice. Thus, rude guy had no legal provocation to "attack" the woman.

    no...he did not have legal provocation for attacking the woman but she sure did try hard to make sure he didnt have a chance to cool down...did she?...i guess she felt safe being off the bus...so it was ok to continue the gesturing...and again...the children learn from this...in some places we call it harrassment...but he deserved it...

    3) Woman had already retreated. (gotten off at her stop?) Rude guy then exits the bus after her. (i get the impression he isnt the only rude one here) Woman is fully justified in believing that rude guy is escalating the situation after she retreated. (the situation that she continued to escalate or at least sustain quite well) ie; rude guy had last clear chance of keeping the situation to a yelling/finger flinging incident but took it to the next level. (and we all know she didnt want that...thats why hes the rude one here) Woman believed that she was in direct danger by someone who was intentionally increasing her risk of perceived harm. (and why wouldnt she...shes been throwing remarks at him well after she...what did you cal it?...oh yeah..retreated)
    4) Don't forget about the fact that the woman had her kids with her. Mom & kids wins over aggressive adult male who continues the incident after mom & kids retreat.(and she taught the kids a valuable lesson that day...if youre gonn a keep an argument alive make sure youre armed in case the other rude party takes it too personally)

    I do not think this was stupid on her part. Yes, she probably could have handled it better but that is Monday morning quarterbacking by those who were not there. And again, I wonder why she was held for 2 days before being released. Lawyering up doesn't do it in my mind. The WITNESSES at the scene verified her story and an investigation should not have taken 2 days. A couple of/few hours in an interview room while LEO complete their on-scene investigation should have done it. If LEO couldn't have figured out what happened after a couple of hours talking to witnesses and compiling their reports they weren't doing their jobs correctly.
    she probably could have handled it better?...yeah...she could have kept her mouth shut and taught her kids its better to walk away from that kind of situation with your head held high than continuing it until somebody does something stupid and has to get shot for it...

    i guess i see your point...righteous shooting...she handled herself with lots of dignity and with any luck her kids wont learn too many bad habits and get beaten down for having big mouths and not knowing when to shut up...or maybe theyre already carrying and they wont have to worry about it.....

  14. #29
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bm7b5 View Post
    Actually, her actions may have been illegal:

    RCW 9A.84.030: Disorderly conduct.

    RCW 9A.84.030
    Disorderly conduct.

    (1) A person is guilty of disorderly conduct if the person:

    (a) Uses abusive language and thereby intentionally creates a risk of assault;


    (2) Disorderly conduct is a misdemeanor.
    cmon...shes a mom with her kids...how could anybody view her conduct as disorderly?..shes just teaching them to stick up for themselves and shoot someone if necessary....

  15. #30
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    might want to take a look at this article also...especially the part about her previous convictions for brandishing in utah...i guess its not the first time shes felt the gun was necessary...

    The Blotter | Woman won't face charges for shooting man in downtown Seattle | Seattle Times Newspaper

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