A VICTORY FOR CC & Self Protection - Page 3

A VICTORY FOR CC & Self Protection

This is a discussion on A VICTORY FOR CC & Self Protection within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by bladenbullet might want to take a look at this article also...especially the part about her previous convictions for brandishing In the day ...

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  1. #31
    Distinguished Member Array nutz4utwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    might want to take a look at this article also...especially the part about her previous convictions for brandishing
    In the day after the shooting, the Seattle Times had several earlier revisions of that article that turned out to be so false they were redacted.

    If we are going to look at the character of those involved, take a look at Salter, as pulled by matiki in the old thread:

    Seattle Municipal Court shows 6 criminal cases closed, 2 pending, and 1 pending criminal traffic case.

    Possession of Marijuana (Dismissed) 2002
    Assault (Dismissed) 2002
    2 counts Assault, 1 count Harassment (Dismissed) 2002
    Minor in Possession (Dismissed) 2002
    Assault (Not Guilty) 2003
    Theft (Guilty) 2005
    Assault (Dismissed) plead to Property Damage (Guilty) 2006
    Theft (Guilty, Sentence Suspended) 2006

    Also a bunch of cases in King and Pierce County Courts - Juvenile so I cannot retrieve it.
    Looks like he has been harassing people for years, but stayed out of prison.

    The prosecutor did a clear job explaining why her actions were legal under state law so I won't take the time to write it.

    the laws to reference are:
    RCW 9A.16.050: Homicide ? By other person ? When justifiable.
    RCW 9A.16.020: Use of force ? When lawful.

    Charges will not be filed against (redacted) because there is strong evidence in this case that she reasonably believed under the facts and circumstances known to her at the time that Salters was about to injure her. Salters was a stranger, who in an angry state, charged at her. He did not stop when she displayed her gun. Instead he continued to advance on her, getting within 1 to 2 feet. She waited to fire until the last possible moment before she could have been assaulted herself. Although she may have made obscene gestures, she did not initiate the physical confrontation. However, Mr. Salters did by charging at her.

    Furthermore, (redacted) did not use an unnecessary amount of force to defend herself. (redacted) displayed the weapon to stop a perceived threat. Despite the display, Salters did not stop his advance. Under state law, (redacted) has no duty to retreat. She can reasonably take into account her inability to use her gun to defend herself if Salters got close enough to physically assault her and be concerned that she could lose the gun in a struggle. As a result, her firing of the gun once to stop Salters was not an unreasonable amount of force under state law.
    This application of state law is consistent with previous incidents that I recall.

    If it bothers you, take a look at this one, it went to trial and is much worse. A Spokane off duty officer went to a bar with a firearm (illegal for us mere mortals), got drunk, had an argument about a ride home (or possibly a man tried to steal his truck?), was drunk and about to get behind the wheel, chased and shot a man in the head, and left the scene without calling 911. He was acquitted by means of self defense under the same statutes:

    Jay Olsen resigns from Spokane Police Department | Spokesman.com | Apr 13, 2009
    "a reminder that no law can replace personal responsibility" - Bill Clinton 2010.


  2. #32
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    In class we were taught "conflict resolution" descale the situation,your ego and pride may be left bruised but you will avoid a fatal confrontation.

  3. #33
    Ex Member Array Cold Warrior's Avatar
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    Am I looking for an excuse to shoot?

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by murfnamedmsu View Post
    I am hesitant to call this a victory. While the guy was initially acting like a jackass and probably scared everyone, you can't shoot someone because you are scared. She (along with her family) kept the altercation going by swearing and gesturing at the guy. It might be media/police bias, but it sounds like the situation would have ended when they exited the bus if they had just left quietly. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want to be in that situation, but most states would say she was responsible for keeping that altercation going and thus had not acted out of self defense.

    I agree w JT1JT1, some people act more boldly than they should because they are armed, whereas most tiptoe more quietly because they know the risks of getting in a fistfight with a gun on the hip, and they don't want to end up having to shoot someone. If she had been quiet and the situation continued forward I would support her 100%, but I can't say that she did her job to try to diffuse things properly before pulling out a gun. This is the kind of thing the sheeple claimed would happen nonstop if the concealed carry bills passed. I'm very thankful it does not happen frequently because it makes us look bad.
    I agree...I mean shooting an unarmed person seems like over kill over a verbal argument.....now if he said he was going to rape her or he attempted to rob her then that is a different stroy but shooting the guy over verbal argument that she continued to press....no way

  5. #35
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by black knife View Post
    I agree...I mean shooting an unarmed person seems like over kill over a verbal argument.....now if he said he was going to rape her or he attempted to rob her then that is a different story but shooting the guy over verbal argument that she continued to press....no way
    shooting a man over a verbal argument isnt my issue here...if he approached her in a menacing manner, she displayed and warned and he chose to continue his alleged attack he deserved to be shot...my argument is that she continued an argument with taunting that lead to the shooting...that could be construed as attempted murder or aggravated assault on her part...she continued to taunt him even after the face to face had ended and he acted foolishly on it...what he did was wrong and he is a piece of *****...i'm not arguing that point...but by the standards of this situation and its legal outcome charles bronson acted lawfully in the movies where he baited and killed criminals...if we allow vigilantes to rule it wont be long before someone puts a bullet in you because they saw you with a gun and thought you were up to no good...had he backed off and displayed a weapon and popped her before she popped him could he have been firing in self defense because he was only approaching her to say something to her and she aimed a weapon at him?...

    how hard do you think it would be to taunt someone on the street to the point of a violent encounter justifying you shooting them?...

    if thats what youre looking for then this is a victory for ccw...if showing the world that its ok to be a foul mouthed and careless citizen and carry a gun to clean up messes you escalate then yeah...its a victory in your eyes...not mine...she should be ashamed of her behavior and it wouldnt have surprised me if she was charged with some responsibility in the incident...the last thing i'm going to do is place her on a pedestal and be grateful she was carrying a gun that day...if she was beaten down by him and the story read that she taunted him even after leaving the bus i'm guessing quite a few people would be saying she should have kept her mouth shut when it ended and been glad it didnt get physical on the bus...like it could have well before she got off and had the opportunity to display her weapon...after she realized she should have shut up...i would like to have seen the look on her face when he got off the bus and came after her...i'm guessing the immediate thought was "oh *****...maybe i should have left it alone"...but i can see that its much better she chose not to...because she got to exercise he human right to defend herself...hooray...
    Last edited by bladenbullet; December 6th, 2009 at 06:45 PM. Reason: spelling atrocities

  6. #36
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Warrior View Post
    Am I looking for an excuse to shoot?
    it appears that you are justified in that using this case as a precedent...

  7. #37
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    Ok, let me get this straight, they have a argument, irregardless of who started what and how much of a dirtbag he is. They have an argument, she gets off the bus and continues to bait this butthead with verbal taunts and gestures, then when he decides that he's had enough and goes for her, she decides that it's time to pull her weapon and shoot him. Do I have this correct so far.

    Ok, first, he probably would have hurt her, she has the right to defend herself in this situation no matter what in my view and obviouisly in the legal systems view in Washington also by no charges being filed. Though, like some here I find no victory here in her cause since she and her family might have taunted this individual who obviously was a loose cannon into a confrontation with them and when it got hot, they pulled out the Ace card to equal it out.

    JMHO
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guardian View Post
    Ok, let me get this straight, they have a argument, irregardless of who started what and how much of a dirtbag he is. They have an argument, she gets off the bus and continues to bait this butthead with verbal taunts and gestures, then when he decides that he's had enough and goes for her, she decides that it's time to pull her weapon and shoot him. Do I have this correct so far.

    Ok, first, he probably would have hurt her, she has the right to defend herself in this situation no matter what in my view and obviouisly in the legal systems view in Washington also by no charges being filed. Though, like some here I find no victory here in her cause since she and her family might have taunted this individual who obviously was a loose cannon into a confrontation with them and when it got hot, they pulled out the Ace card to equal it out.

    JMHO
    So what you are saying is if somebody says something bad about your wife or girlfriend and you decide to give him a smack to his head for offending you...he has the right to pull out his gun and shoot you.

    That is what it seems to have happend in this siutation...it appears that she provoked the guy because she knew she had the gun. I bet if she did not have her gun in her possession she would have kept her mouth shut and walked away, which she should have done in the first place.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob P. View Post
    I like this story except for one thing. She was held for 2 days before being released without charges.

    WHY was she held for 2 days? The police would have investigated and interviewed witnesses at the scene. The witnesses would have told the same story that they did. Based on that the woman was acting in self defense regardless of what the dirtbag would have said.

    A 2-4 hour detention while the investigation was being conducted would have been sufficient IMO. ESPECIALLY as she was with her young children at the time.
    I know in my home state they can hold you for 72 hours without charging you. And they usually ALWAYS exercise that right. If you did anything or not you sit in jail for 3 days. Kinda BS if you ask me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guardian View Post
    Ok, let me get this straight, they have a argument, irregardless of who started what and how much of a dirtbag he is. They have an argument, she gets off the bus and continues to bait this butthead with verbal taunts and gestures, then when he decides that he's had enough and goes for her, she decides that it's time to pull her weapon and shoot him. Do I have this correct so far.

    Ok, first, he probably would have hurt her, she has the right to defend herself in this situation no matter what in my view and obviouisly in the legal systems view in Washington also by no charges being filed. Though, like some here I find no victory here in her cause since she and her family might have taunted this individual who obviously was a loose cannon into a confrontation with them and when it got hot, they pulled out the Ace card to equal it out.

    JMHO
    I agree. I don't believe this is really a victory for us. She could have walked away at the start and this probably wouldn't have happened. I don't think she used all her options before resorting to deadly force. Sounds like she pushed him until she had to use it,like she was just itching to use it.
    When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.
    The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
    - Thomas Jefferson

  10. #40
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by black knife View Post
    So what you are saying is if somebody says something bad about your wife or girlfriend and you decide to give him a smack to his head for offending you...he has the right to pull out his gun and shoot you.

    That is what it seems to have happend in this siutation...it appears that she provoked the guy because she knew she had the gun. I bet if she did not have her gun in her possession she would have kept her mouth shut and walked away, which she should have done in the first place.
    lousy example there black....not even close to this situation but in your past posts you seem to approve of that scenario...it was a verbal altercation...she continued the verbal altercation (equivalent to saying something bad about your wife?)...he took it to a point where it looked like it might get physical (might...there was no contact) and she shot him...seems you slapping a guy in the head for saying something about your wife would be more grounds for shooting you than she had for shooting this guy...well put...thanks for clarifying your views on this type of situation...

    all that had happened up till the point she pulled the trigger was verbal...the initial contact may not have been an assault as witnesses said he swayed and fell on her...that started a verbal disagreement that ended before she got off the bus...if everytime someone bumped into someone on the street it turned into a verbal disagreement with grounds for protection with a firearm we wouldnt have any overpopulation problems in our cities...

  11. #41
    Ex Member Array scotthsi's Avatar
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    I didn't read all the posts, but what about the civil trial where she gets sued for everything she owns that's mostly likely going to happen (if it hasn't already)?

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    lousy example there black....not even close to this situation but in your past posts you seem to approve of that scenario...it was a verbal altercation...she continued the verbal altercation (equivalent to saying something bad about your wife?)...he took it to a point where it looked like it might get physical (might...there was no contact) and she shot him...seems you slapping a guy in the head for saying something about your wife would be more grounds for shooting you than she had for shooting this guy...well put...thanks for clarifying your views on this type of situation...

    all that had happened up till the point she pulled the trigger was verbal...the initial contact may not have been an assault as witnesses said he swayed and fell on her...that started a verbal disagreement that ended before she got off the bus...if everytime someone bumped into someone on the street it turned into a verbal disagreement with grounds for protection with a firearm we wouldnt have any overpopulation problems in our cities...
    So if I read your reply correctly, you are saying that if you are faced with a BG coming at you, cussing, yelling, and moving at a fast clip, you will wait to see if he harms you before pulling and using your weapon?

    Yeah, I know, you would have walked away and let it go, me too, but if you were facing what she was when he got off the bus, what would you do? Its easy to say "she was not in danger" after the fact, but what do you do when faced with the situation, and have precious few seconds to make a decision.
    Andy
    You may all go to hell and I will go to Texas - David Crockett
    When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson

  13. #43
    Distinguished Member Array nutz4utwo's Avatar
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    This incident has really hit a nerve! I truly appreciate all the opinions and info presented. I am also happy to see that collectively, we are not "trigger happy fools" who are looking for a fight.

    In regards to all the various scenarios presented, I believe the only way to properly answer them is using the "reasonable man" standard:

    Reasonable person - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    The reasonable person standard holds: each person owes a duty to behave as a reasonable person would under the same or similar circumstances.
    RCW 9A.16.020: Use of force ? When lawful.
    use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful...in case the force is not more than is necessary;
    RCW 9A.16.050: Homicide ? By other person ? When justifiable.
    Homicide is also justifiable...when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury...
    We use Mr. Reasonable to determine if the amount of force she used was not more then necessary and if she had a reasonable ground to believe Salters was about to commit a great personal injury.

    ...?
    "a reminder that no law can replace personal responsibility" - Bill Clinton 2010.

  14. #44
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    Bottom line is she instigated to situation and made the threat level rise due to her own actions. I am sure if I try I can instigate someone enough until they attack me.

    Sorry but I woulda locked her up if I was judge and jury. She makes CC'ers look bad.
    When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.
    The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
    - Thomas Jefferson

  15. #45
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by basher052 View Post
    So if I read your reply correctly, you are saying that if you are faced with a BG coming at you, cussing, yelling, and moving at a fast clip, you will wait to see if he harms you before pulling and using your weapon?

    Yeah, I know, you would have walked away and let it go, me too, but if you were facing what she was when he got off the bus, what would you do? Its easy to say "she was not in danger" after the fact, but what do you do when faced with the situation, and have precious few seconds to make a decision.
    you must be having difficulty reading my reply...i wouldnt instigate the situation the way she did so there is nothing even remotely similar in her life and mine...honestly...if the guy fell on me on the bus on purpose i would help him up and make it clear in in a polite fashion that he needs to keep his distance if he argued it would fall on deaf ears or while he watched me dial the police on my cell phone to inform them i was just assaulted and am being harrassed publicly by the same person...but it probably wouldnd get that far in reality...

    i never said she was not in danger...what i and several others have tried to convey is that the danger was over when she left him on the bus (perceived danger as he never attacked her on the bus even though she carried on a heated argument with him)...she escalated the ended confrontation into a new confrontation by continuing to make gestures and shout at him after the incident was over and she was safe...the result was him leaving the bus and approaching her with the same attitude whe was giving him....because he was approaching her she decided her well being was in danger, displayed a firearm and warned him...this is where he got stupid and continued to approach her....she shot him...

    back up...at what point do we believe it is a good idea to leave well enough alone when confronted by a stranger that we believe could hurt us?...when the contact ends i would assume...not good enough for her...she decides now that she is safely off the bus that she can taunt the crap out of him...re-escalating an incident that is over with...this is about all he can take and i'm guessing that if thats the way she thinks she probably wasnt a clean mouthed lady about the whole thing and it would have raised the hair on the back of your neck also....

    she created an unnecessary continuation of an ended situation...they may have never seen each other again and she could brag to her friends about how she overcame a man on the bus with her witty tongue...instead her witty tongue created a situation where she feared for her life....

    do you get it yet?...it was over but she escalated it to the point where she feared for her life!....apparently when she was in close quarters with him she didnt fear for her life because she never displayed her weapon on the bus...but after she was safely away from him she escaleted the situation into one where she feared for her life!...sorry to be repetitive but it seems necessary in this case because all anybody who likes the fact that a ccw shot him seems to see is her being afraid she is going to be attacked by him...not that she provoked the attack...

    do i need to continue?...or should i be out on the street getting into arguments so i can excersize my right to defend myself?...

    sorry...no...i wouldnt get into a situation like this...so its hard to understand where you are going with the same foolish question...like....if someone was hitting you would you?...not even close to this situation and interestingly enough he never hit her...and as far as we know he wasnt going to...he probably would have on the bus if thats the way he felt...it may have just been another argument like the one in the bus face to face...but we'll never know...because lucky for all of us...she carried a gun and knew how to use it...to back up her big mouth....

    this is fun...and entertaining...

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