We are educating the BGs - defense of property

This is a discussion on We are educating the BGs - defense of property within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; OK, took a few minutes from the Honey-Do- Now list to check email. First off, ALL HAIL GRAMPA edr9x23super! HAIL!! I'm going to have to ...

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Thread: We are educating the BGs - defense of property

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    OK, took a few minutes from the Honey-Do-Now list to check email.

    First off, ALL HAIL GRAMPA edr9x23super!

    HAIL!!

    I'm going to have to copy that one down.

    hengst - Thank you. Not quite sure what exactly you meant by summation, but to be clear, the CRS listed are only a small fraction of the Colorado Criminal Code as relevant to our (READ - CCW permit holders/citizens not expecting the police to protect us) needs. One could literally read for days following the case laws, and references to other statutes. In other words, there is a great deal more to it.

    To whomever said that the commission of the crime stops when the criminal stops... One of the Colorado Case Law Annotations that I deleted, ...stated something along the lines that;
    the individual was technically still in the process of stopping the accused, even though it was in trail, ergo the injuries sustained by the accused after he was caught by the individual was done in the process of stopping the crime...
    something close to that. I spent 3 hours putting that post together and now I will have to go back and try to find it.

    A lot of your are working under the presumption that this topic is of killing or taking the life in the defense of property. OK we are on a forum where we do talk about taking the life of another. Serious medicine that is. Let that little tidbit go and don't read between the lines.

    Defense of Property If you need a little more; Use of Physical Force in the Defense of Property.

    The words shoot, kill, exterminate, liquidate, terminate, erase, destroy, take, cleanse, purge, forfeit, judge, jury, execute, relieve, vaporize...(get the picture) are not in the title, nor in the basis of the thread. The gist of this lesson is stopping (or not) criminal acts against you and/or your property, - regardless of value.

    It is the principle that by giving up ones wallet, purse (sorry ladies, should have put that in the OP), vehicle keys, or seeing someone stealing your property while you are at home, no matter what time of day, and doing nothing but calling the police with a faint hope that they might either get there in time (Cubs in the Series?) or at least catch them down the road, I feel is by default, condoning their actions.

    I'll get to more of the comments later. Gotta go, just received a crusty from the Mrs.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

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  3. #32
    Senior Member Array BRTCP88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edr9x23super View Post
    Interesting post; I like to think back to conversations I had with my grandfather on the subject of lawlessness since he grew up during the depression when quite a lot of thievery and robbery was going on; His take on that sort of thing was that trying to assign a dollar value on human life was, and is a waste of time because life is an intangible asset that has limitless value. depending on how the person lives it.

    He did, however go on to say that allowing someone to steal your possessions just because you had insurance was just as bad as stealing your neighbors' things. I was confused by this, and he elaborated by saying that what was going to be the eventual undoing of our country would be a moral decay and a toleration of lawless behavior, rather than a military conquest. He also said that the toleration of a thief is a toleration of the behavior, and eventually has implications for everyone. It starts with the thief probably not facing the consequences of his actions, by someone just giving them what they want without a fight; then it continues in the higher cost of insurance which can be viewed as a tax on everyone who has it because of the thousands of people who also have the same attitude. And it costs us still more later on when this thief is finally caught because then we have to pay to try him, convict him then incarcerate him as well. And putting him in jail merely prepares him for bigger and better crimes when he gets out later on.

    So in summary, he said standing up to thieves and criminals and protecting what you worked and toiled for is cheaper in the long run, both financially and for society as well. What is killing us now are penal codes and judicial systems that now work to protect the rights of the criminal more than the law abiding citizen. He finished by saying that the only thing that would swing things back in the other direction was if we began reaching the tipping point, which he also feared would probably be too late for us as a nation; as he opined at the time "You will know the end is near when the construction of prisons outstrips the construction of schools". Grandpa passed away in 1993, but his words stay with me to this day. Four years before he passed, a would-be home invader tried to force his way into his home. Even at 70, Grandpa disabled the revolver the BG had by jamming the web of his hand between the hammer and frame then twisted it away and proceeded to beat the crap out of the BG with his bare hands. By the time police arrived the BG was unconscious and had to have his jaw wired together.

    When my horrified mother asked why he fought back against a man half his age with a gun, he calmly said "because what he was doing was wrong, this is MY home he is trying to rob and I am not going down without a fight". At that point, my mother told him that he should quit being so "black and white" about things because the world was just "shades of gray". My grandpa then became angry, poked his finger in my Moms' chest and told her in a very stern voice, "Julie Ann, the world is shades of gray for Liberals and Lawyers, it is and always has been black and white for the rest of us since God made the world".

    I brought this up when I read someone's opinion of the world being shades of gray, which it is not and never has been. My take is that life boils down to the choices we make, and the things we tolerate as normal behavior. I choose to fight for my family and my home and my possessions only because I was taught that failure to do so was a resignation and a surrender to the thief and the criminal that they could impose their will upon you, that it was easier to appease them than to resist them. If I have learned anything from my grandfathers' generation it was the folly of appeasement when dealing with these kind of people.

    Looking back on my Grandfather's musings, especially reading his memoirs he was astoundingly prophetic in his description of our current situation. Sometime I may post these musings with the dates he wrote them down, it is very interesting, especially his experiences during WWII when he fought in the Pacific Islands with the Marines........

    OK, I'm done....
    Sounds like a great guy. Kinda reminds me of my granddad, who definitely shaped my life and was also a WWII vet. Back in the sixties someone came into his drugstore with a gun and started threatening the cashier but my granddad was working at his bench filling prescriptions, which was raised up above the checkout, and he told that punk he had a gun pointed straight at his head and it would be a very good idea to leave. Sadly he died last month.
    Ron Paul 2012

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  4. #33
    Member Array Cycler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryM View Post
    We fight wars and millions die for our freedoms; one of which is the right to own property. And no a human life is not worth more than that right.

    If we compare the worth of a life with the cost of any property then we should just let the thief take whatever he wants. Even if a thief robs a bank why should he be shot?

    Is one's life worth more than the virginity of a daughter, or the beating by a thug of one's wife?

    So I have to take issue with the basic premise that we must consider the worth of a human life in comparison with monetary worths.

    But the law is the law, and I will always try my best to obey it.

    Regards,
    Jerry
    What if the thief is your 11 year old first time shoplifter son who's half experimenting and half hanging out with the wrong crowd because you're being overly protective and the property owner is Walmart inc. Should the manager have the right to kill him dead for stealing the company's property?

  5. #34
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    This happened to my sister

    Quote Originally Posted by elkhunter View Post
    My take, if I understand Sticks OP, is in how to ensure that BG understands that entering my property to do crime can be a deadly exercise.

    Deleted stuff--
    It's not unheard of, for a more organized BG to steal something, and just wait for insurance to replace with brand new. That brand new item may just be the original intended target.
    .
    This is exactly what happened to my sister 15 years back. BG got in the house while she slept upstairs and stole a bunch of stuff. She luckily heard nothing and didn't discover the theft till the next morning.

    Insurance replaced all the stolen items. The SAME thieves then returned for the brand new stuff.

    They were discovered and turned in by one of their own relatives who wondered where the stuff they had came from, but still my sister's place was burgled twice.

    None of it was worth a life, but as they were in the house, stealing at night, in Texas they would have been fair game.

  6. #35
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycler View Post
    What if the thief is your 11 year old first time shoplifter son who's half experimenting and half hanging out with the wrong crowd because you're being overly protective and the property owner is Walmart inc. Should the manager have the right to kill him dead for stealing the company's property?
    What does the state law say? Your answer in somewhere in the statutes. Everyone should know what the laws of the land where they live are. If you don't then you may be sorry later.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  7. #36
    Senior Member Array elkhunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    The gist of this lesson is stopping (or not) criminal acts against you and/or your property, - regardless of value.
    Got it!
    Must stop said criminal acts, or we become repeat "suppliers" for BG's supply line.
    As soon as ANY business man understands that it is too costly to do a certain business action, he stops that action to search for another more "profitable" course of action.
    Crime is a business, even if it is an illegal one. (Ask the MOB. They stayed in business, running liquor because it was profitable to do so.)

    So we as property owners would be in safer shape once BG's understand that doing their "business" with us is not going to be profitable.

    Make sense?
    It’s so much easier now days, to "Love and honor" my wife, when she is armed, and shoots a better group than I do. (Till death do us part, eh?)

    “The way you get shot by a concealed weapons permit holder is, you point a gun at him,” the Sheriff said.

  8. #37
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    I love Texas laws...You can use deadly force to protect property, if needed. Texas grand juries and DA's give a lot of lee way to property owners when they defend their property... I'm not the one who sets the value of a human life. The BG decided his life was worth $300, when tried taking my BBQ grill, etc...That being said, I may or may not use deadly force depending on the situation.

    I've read "In the Gravest Extreme", and while I think it's an excellent read, one must realize Ayoob is trying to give advice based on what would fly in the majority of the US. As for taking what Ayoob says as the gospel for self defense, I wouldn't. While he is considered an expert, you must determine what you can and can't do based on your state laws...
    "Texas can make it without the United States, but the United States can't make it without Texas!".... Sam Houston

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  9. #38
    VIP Member Array mprp's Avatar
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    I love hearing about "grandpa's" era. I was the best time from what I can tell. Of course, that's back in the day where it was understood that one had to work in order to earn things. Now days, it seems the newest generation thinks that just because they exist, they've earned it all. Hell, it's even poisoned our government..."Let's spread the wealth, let's spread the wealth!" Hey, how 'bout let's stop doing drive-by's, spray painting our neighborhoods and stealing cars, get off of the video games and EARN something? Of course, they'd probably have to remain in school for a while too but who in their right mind would want to do that?
    Vietnam Vets, WELCOME HOME

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  10. #39
    Senior Member Array BRTCP88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mprp View Post
    I love hearing about "grandpa's" era. I was the best time from what I can tell. Of course, that's back in the day where it was understood that one had to work in order to earn things. Now days, it seems the newest generation thinks that just because they exist, they've earned it all. Hell, it's even poisoned our government..."Let's spread the wealth, let's spread the wealth!" Hey, how 'bout let's stop doing drive-by's, spray painting our neighborhoods and stealing cars, get off of the video games and EARN something? Of course, they'd probably have to remain in school for a while too but who in their right mind would want to do that?


    You sir, are totally correct, and that's coming from one of the young-in's you're talking about, lol.
    Ron Paul 2012

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  11. #40
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    One more Oooh-rah for edm's grandpa.

    MO has a castle doctrine - enter a person's home/boat/tent/vehicle/hotel room, they may assume you intend great bodily harm and act accordingly.
    ...use physical force upon another person when and to the extent he or she reasonably believes such force to be necessary to defend himself or herself or a third person from what he or she reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful force by such other person,
    ...(3) The actor was attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of a forcible felony.

    2. A person may not use deadly force upon another person under the circumstances specified in subsection 1 of this section unless:

    (1) He or she reasonably believes that such deadly force is necessary to protect himself or herself or another against death, serious physical injury,[ rape, sodomy or kidnapping or serious physical injury through robbery, burglary or arson] or any forcible felony; or
    ...3. A person does not have a duty to retreat
    ...justified in using such force and such fact shall be an absolute defense to criminal prosecution or civil liability.

    2. The court shall award attorney's fees, court costs, and all reasonable expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant has an absolute defense as provided in subsection 1 of this section.


    As far as value of property goes, that's not the point. A shrink once told my mother that thieves will murder those they are stealing from - murder is stealing someone's life. If a sound is heard outside one's home, a natural reaction is to investigate. Once a thief is found, that is the start of the encounter - whether you are inside or outside. One never knows when the thief will graduate to murder - a pane of glass or insulation + drywall will not protect you if today's the day. A thief knows that when committing a crime he may be confronted by an armed citizen. The thief is the one that placed a value of $299 or the $20 in his victim/citizen's wallet on his life. The citizen is not the one that placed a value on anyone's life, the crook did that. Would I automatically shoot someone stealing from me while I was behind cover, no, but if that person escalated the situation I would respond accordingly. Texas has the right idea, the pendulum has swung way too far to the left - it's finally coming back in the right direction.

    No legal advice given here, read the statutes for yourself.

  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob P. View Post
    NO ONE can "pre-plan" what they are going to do except in generalities. And, if you do "pre-plan" ...
    Can't imagine that anyone is so naive as to believe that "pre-planning" of an engagement is absolute. I hardly think anyone's thinking is so rigid as what is being suggested.

    Statements about what a person's thinking is at this moment, though, are almost certainly simply indicative of one's basic philosophy and hoped-for plan. Everyone plans, and everyone who is intelligent adapts during implementation. As most everyone knows (or is quickly shown), it's how reality works.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  13. #42
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    I will defend and stop a thief from taking my property... period. That doesn't mean I'll shoot them, but they may be in for a good whompin on or delaying them after I call 911 and let them handle it.
    Last edited by Eagleks; December 6th, 2009 at 12:06 AM.

  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by elkhunter View Post
    I personally do not want to kill over that BBQ Grill, but neither do I want any BG to think I am a safe target.
    BGs read these forums? So what? When they attempt to steal our stuff, they might encounter "elkhunter" who has thoughtfully weighed scenarios in his mind and has decided how far he'll go in defense of property, or he might run into "InternetRambo" who will shoot him dead, drag him back into the house and make up a story about what happened.

    The BG doesn't really know which of us he'll encounter when he attempts to burglarize or rob us. What he *does* know is that more and more of us have tools that can launch lead projectiles in excess of 1000 FPS, and it might be time to contemplate another line of work.
    -Tony

    "Those who beat their guns into plowshares will plow for those who didn't." -- Thomas Jefferson

  15. #44
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    I am in the belief of if you take my truck from outside my home, and no ones life is in danger then so be it. If you try to take it with me in it your in trouble. If you steal from outside my home, well then good for you that the dog did not eat you. If you enter I will protect my family at all costs. I have to agree BG that are reading these blog are doing intel work and smart ones will. The common thief mot likely doesn't have a computer, but he might steal yours and check out your bookmarks.

  16. #45
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    edr9x23super, well said!

    I've always gone by my rule that I will use the lowest level of force necessary to stop what every the BG is trying to do, but I will be prepared to escalate to the highest level available within the law.

    That being said, I will not stand by and let someone take off with my car, tools, or any valuable within or outside of my home. To stand by and allow another to violate the law sets a bad example for your family, community, and society as a whole. It also shows our liberal brothers and sisters that we really don't care and that its just fine to depend on the police for the protection of our families and property

    I'm glad I live in Idaho...here are our laws
    Idaho Statutes
    TITLE 18
    CRIMES AND PUNISHMENTS
    CHAPTER 40
    HOMICIDE
    18-4009. JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDE BY ANY PERSON. Homicide is also justifiable
    when committed by any person in either of the following cases:
    1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a
    felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or,
    2. When committed in defense of habitation, property or person, against
    one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or surprise, to commit a
    felony, or against one who manifestly intends and endeavors, in a violent,
    riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter the habitation of another for the
    purpose of offering violence to any person therein; or,
    3. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a wife or
    husband, parent, child, master, mistress or servant of such person, when there
    is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to commit a felony or to do some
    great bodily injury, and imminent danger of such design being accomplished;
    but such person, or the person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was
    the assailant or engaged in mortal combat, must really and in good faith have
    endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was committed;
    or,
    4. When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and means, to
    apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in lawfully suppressing any
    riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving the peace.


    Idaho Castle Doctrine
    STATEMENT OF PURPOSE

    RS 16170

    The purpose of this legislation is to give a person immunity from
    civil action for using force to defend his life, family or
    property from those who would seek to harm them or for coming to
    the aid of another who is threatened. This in no way is intended
    to apply to if such force is used against law enforcement
    officers. It would also allow award of reasonable attorney's
    fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income and all
    expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of civil action if
    the court finds that the defendant is immune from such an action.
    Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws... serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man - Cesare Beccaria

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