Rendering aid

This is a discussion on Rendering aid within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; So my girlfriend asked me an interesting question. to understand where I'm coming from, I'm only 20, will be 21 in a few months and ...

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Thread: Rendering aid

  1. #106
    Member Array mikeprekopa's Avatar
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    helping your attacker? medical personel ?

    So my girlfriend asked me an interesting question.

    to understand where I'm coming from, I'm only 20, will be 21 in a few months and will then put in my Concealed Carry app. I'm trying to figure out as much as I can about CC till then. I just finished my EMT class and am a state licensed EMT-B. I know there are a few people in the medical field out there and I'm hoping to hear from them.

    If, god forbid, you should have to defend yourself and shoot someone, would you render aid? This is assuming its a justified shot, you have already called 911, and that you have some sort of understanding of what needs to be done to keep them from dying.

    I know there isn't a whole lot of scenario here, and I'm sorry about that. but what makes one person fire makes another reach for OC spray and a third laugh. I'm not worried about what brings you to fire as much as your reaction after.

    So after my long winded story/scenario/question, I suppose it breaks down to
    A) If you have the skills to render first aid to this person, Would you? Why?
    B) What are some legal issues you may be faced with after ?
    I could see this being ammo for the other side in court. Would you face neglect or something else for not helping ?

    I personally would NOT help them... one thing they taught us was Scene Safe? BSI. Before entering a scene, ALWAYS be sure it is safe to enter. There are very few people I would risk my life to save. This guy isn't one to me. Though I have just shot this person, that doesn't mean he doesn't have a knife or something and won't try to stab me for what I just did. They may also mistake your rendering aid as another attack.

    Thanks for bearing with me. It may be a stupid question, but the only truly stupid question is the one never asked

    So I just wanted to see what others thought on this. No wrong answers, so feel free to chime in
    NREMT-B

    "Dead is dead"
    "Yea, till we show up with jumper cables and drugs to debate it"

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  3. #107
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeprekopa View Post
    So after my long winded story/scenario/question, I suppose it breaks down to

    A) If you have the skills to render first aid to this person, Would you? Why?
    B) What are some legal issues you may be faced with after ?
    I could see this being ammo for the other side in court. Would you face neglect or something else for not helping ?

    Not much else can be offered up that hasn't already been covered by folks earlier.

    Though, I will say that in every training course I have taken and every discussion with competent attorneys I have had, for both reasons of threat to life and legal jeopardy the strong recommendation has been to not render such aid in this situation. Why?

    1. The person has just tried to kill you, yours or someone whose life you were justifiably defending. What makes you think the felon no longer wants to do so?

    2. Are you absolutely certain the felon doesn't have a hidden deadly weapon that will be used on you the moment you get within contact distance, particularly given that you're about to voluntarily direct your attention, hands and eyes elsewhere?

    3. What if you succeed in "saving" the felon. Now, you've got a bad force with a "story" to tell against your upstanding actions, which are entirely likely to make things more difficult for you (legally speaking).

    4. What if you fail in "saving" the felon, and he expires? You have just succeeded in opening the question as to whether your efforts were designed to fail, that you killed him after he was down. What about witnesses to what you just did? Will their testimonies help or harm you?

    5. What if you have your children or other family members about, who still need protection or help? Would this change your answer? Would you risk failure to attend to them and securing them and others, for the health of a felon who attempted to murder you and yours?

    6. What about evidence that's lying about? What if it gets mucked with, or what if it's claimed that in your fooling around near the felon you altered or manufactured evidence?

    7. If you cannot keep your wits and attention, if you allow yourself to succumb to such things, then accusations might easily be made (true or false). Thwarting such accusations can be a thorny proposition.

    8. Few people are trained EMT or doctor. Can you be certain your skills will do no harm, given the highly likely chemical "dump" coursing through your body, without suitable tools, without sanitation/sterilization, and without any certainty that the felon won't simply take advantage of your lack of attention/focus? Are you certain your actions won't be taken as a severe conflict of interest or taken as planned action by you to harm the felon now in your care, if in fact the felon is harmed by your "help"?

    9. What about others in the area? Whom else was harmed? Who is calling 911/cavalry? Who is keeping guard over the scene, against other bad players in the scenario, against loss of evidence? Who is going to monitor for inbound police, meet them, and manage the initial contact such that good people don't get taken out?



    For me, the answer is: A felon who attacks me and temporarily fails is now in the hands of the fates. I will not go near him, will not touch him, will not render aid except to call for assistance by those who have the capability and skill to render such aid as he might require. I have far more important things to do in terms of managing the post-attack period through the end of my involvement, in terms of helping others, keeping myself and others safe from continued attack, and managing the initial contact with police. Should he choose to continue the fight even at this apparently late stage, I have the responsibility to stop it. Otherwise, the felon has set things in motion and his fate is no longer in my hands.


    IANAL. These comments are personal opinion and questions to ponder, only. For legal advice or opinion, you should speak with an attorney competent in the relevant subject matter and ramifications.
    Last edited by ccw9mm; January 16th, 2010 at 06:39 AM. Reason: grammar
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  4. #108
    Senior Member Array Avenger's Avatar
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    Chances are no, but because I probably didnt wound the guy. If he is still alive, he will be dead before paramedics arrive. I shoot to kill, not to wound.

    But the training I have received in the military, I would probably feel bad for the guy and do what I could for him. But first things are first, CALL 911 IMMEDIATELY! and then start First Aid. I donno, I am really torn on this one. The chances of getting aids and being sued for helping the guy might not be worth it. Good Question.

  5. #109
    Member Array 1911V10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    I've thought about this before and have decided that, no, I will not render aide.

    First, I was just forced to shoot the man (or woman) because he or she was trying to kill me. That right there makes me hesitant to care about his or her well being.

    Second, there is always the chance that he or she is either playing possum or dazed and the moment I start "rendering aide" they come out of it. Others have already mentioned the idea of a second weapon that was hidden. They could also be hopped up on drugs that make them more aggressive and/or stronger than usual.

    Third, you said that you would restrain them and wear rubber gloves. So, not only do I have to carry a gun, a knife, spare mags and a back up gun or knife. Now, I have to carry rubber gloves, zip ties, hand cuffs (or some other restraint), basic medical first aide kit,.......... where does it end?

    Fourth, I am not a paramedic.

    Fifth, after a shooting I'm almost sure experience an adrenaline dump and other physical effects. I will be shaking, scared, and generally not in any condition to be assessing the physical well being of anyone.

    Sixth, this falls under "not my job" category.

    Also, you mentioned wearing rubber gloves. But what if you need to give mouth-to-mouth and there is blood in the way, are you also going to start carrying a mouth guard?

    What if you are injured yourself and in too much shock to know it? Adrenaline can keep you from feeling gun shot wounds, even breaks and stabs. You need to get away to safety and start evaluating yourself before you take time to worry about someone else, particularly the person who put you in that situation to begin with.

    Lastly, until the police arrive and he is loaded into an ambulance you have no assurance that the situation is truly over. His buddies could be around the corner and on their way. A civilian passery-by may misunderstand the situation and get involved. There are just WAAAAYYYY too many variables.

    The best and most important thing is to get away to safety.

    Get away to safety.

    Let me say that again: GET AWAY TO SAFETY.

    Call the police and keep your mouth shut until your lawyer arrives.
    I agree 100%

  6. #110
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    In geneal, I'm not out to kill anyone, and I only want to stop the BG's threat to me. I'd like to say yes, but given that I don't carry rubber gloves with me (the G30 is enough), I don't know for sure. In the past I have jumped in gloveless to help an injured bloody stranger. It's a case being there in actual time. Maybe...maybe not. My conscience says yes; the brain says no.
    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
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  7. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samwolf View Post
    No.

    The perp better hope that the paramedics can get to him/her quickly.

    ^^^^YEP^^^^^

    How would you know that his knuckledragger friends are not coming out of the woodwork about the time you are preoccupied "rendering " aid.

    Not me, He's the yardbird who initiated my Self defense against his aggression, He's gonna wait for EMS.
    Its more than what I would get out of him if the tables were turned



    "If someone is so fearful that, that they're going to start using their weapons to protect their rights, it makes me very nervous that these people have these weapons at all."
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  8. #112
    Member Array KSDeputy's Avatar
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    Rendering Aid

    I'd call 911 for EMS right away, after the adrenalin went down and my hand stopped shaking.

  9. #113
    Senior Member Array Geezer's Avatar
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    I'd never consider helping the perp. I'd first verify the family was safe, then call 911 , then make sure nobody disturbs the crime scene - that includes rendering first aid.

  10. #114
    Member Array Fishshavers's Avatar
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    If 911 counts as aid, otherwise no

  11. #115
    Senior Member Array DrLewall's Avatar
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    With my busy schedule, I probably wouldn't have time to stop...at least I would make sure I was busy anyway
    "Brains before Bullets"

  12. #116
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    No!
    "If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan

  13. #117
    Ex Member Array Treo's Avatar
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    then make sure nobody disturbs the crime scene - that includes rendering first aid.
    Stopping another person from rendering aid could really leave some teeth marks on your posterior.

    You aren't a cop how do you intend to stop them?

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