Concealed Carry=Probable Cause of criminal activity

This is a discussion on Concealed Carry=Probable Cause of criminal activity within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Here's a proper analogy. You are eating in a sandwich shop, and as you are stuffing your face with a salmon burger & sweet potato ...

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Thread: Concealed Carry=Probable Cause of criminal activity

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Here's a proper analogy.

    You are eating in a sandwich shop, and as you are stuffing your face with a salmon burger & sweet potato fries covered in chilli & cheese (not velveta, smoked gouda...) you see a guy park his car, walk to the trunk, withdraw a pistol, tuck it into the small of his back, close his trunk, adjust his jacket and walk toward the sandwich shop you are eating in.

    Could he have a permit? Maybe.

    Might he just be here for an order of sweet potato chilli cheese fries & a heart attack burger (3 1/2 pound angus burgers, 12 strips of bacon, gouda, swiss & pepper jack cheese all on a pair of krispy kreme doughnuts. With a slice of pickle for fiber...)? Maybe.

    But tell me you aren't starting to wipe off your hands, shift a bit in your seat and palm that J-frame in your pocket as you think "OK, if it goes down I'm going to empty the J-Frame as I start moving..."

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TX-JB View Post

    I think part of the problem goes to the carrier... why is he arming himself where someone can see him in public?

    Because they need the police action to sue.

    You can't sue without standing, and absent action of the government which adversely effects you in a tangible way ("I was denied entry to a state park because I was carrying a firearm in accordance with state law...I was detained by the cops...") you are not a plaintiff the court will hear.

    Just because you disagree with something doesn't mean the case will be heard.

    You have to have some stake in the matter.

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TX-JB View Post

    For clarification an 'affirmative defense', in Tx it means that basically, DA's will not accept charges, because they can't win...an automatic win for the defense...
    In layman's terms, "I did it, but I'm not guilty because I was justified/I have a permit for that thing..."

    Some affirmative defenses, like self defense, are proven at trial because they are situationally and factually based - were you justified is a decission that has to be made by a jury.

    Others are written into the law, such as "No person shall carry a pistol or revolver consealed upon their person. This section shall not apply to:....persons having a permit issued in accordance with subsection D1(f)3 of this section..."

  5. #19
    Senior Member Array rmodel65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tns0038 View Post
    While one would think an LEO would upon producing “id” be shown more courtesy, than Mr. Raissi was, but I have known officers who were treated the same way, as Christopher Raissi's was when an officer in another jurisdiction noticed he/she was carrying a concealed weapon.

    Was Christopher Raissi within his rights to carry on MARTA? Sure… absolutely

    Was the officer correct, in making inquires?
    Here I would have to agree that he was. But it should of stopped when Mr. Raissi produced his CCL. Or at the very worst, the officer should have called it in to verify, without undue detention of Mr. Raissi.

    What this all boils down to is, this whole situation, would of never happen if Mr. Raissi would of kept his concealed weapon concealed, and for now until this ruling is “overturned” or amended, I think all of us need to take a lesson from this, and make sure our weapons stay concealed.


    no way to verify a GFL in GA unless you call the probate that issued it and its during a normal buisness hour....
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  6. #20
    Member Array Jim Macklin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tns0038 View Post
    While one would think an LEO would upon producing “id” be shown more courtesy, than Mr. Raissi was, but I have known officers who were treated the same way, as Christopher Raissi's was when an officer in another jurisdiction noticed he/she was carrying a concealed weapon.

    Was Christopher Raissi within his rights to carry on MARTA? Sure… absolutely

    Was the officer correct, in making inquires?
    Here I would have to agree that he was. But it should of stopped when Mr. Raissi produced his CCL. Or at the very worst, the officer should have called it in to verify, without undue detention of Mr. Raissi.

    What this all boils down to is, this whole situation, would of never happen if Mr. Raissi would of kept his concealed weapon concealed, and for now until this ruling is “overturned” or amended, I think all of us need to take a lesson from this, and make sure our weapons stay concealed.
    The "open carry" movement can cause problems. I don't know, but I'm guessing that this was one of those confrontational demonstrations [where is the video?].

    The entire history of gun control in the USA was racially based prior to about 1905. It began in the South where white men were expected to carry and the laws either forbade blacks from being armed, or the only guns allowed cost several years wages. Slave Codes were renamed after the Civil War to Black Codes. It was illegal to teach a black how to read, they might get ideas. Read Dred Scott, read about the 13 and 14th amendments and how the Second Amendment was a big part of their passage.

    Atlanta is a high crime area, it is also an area that seeks to maintain the current political structure. The gun rights movement is in conflict with old line segregationists and liberal government school blacks.

    "Open carry" stirs the pot and that can be a bad thing when the results are not well thought out. Did this guy open/conceal/open just to draw attention so he could complain? Should the police have investigated, yes. Should they have said, "Good day Sir" Here is your CWP back" [and be more discrete.

    maybe the guy had drawn attention of a DA and that got the cops to single him out? Was there profiling? Is the judges reliance on NY law proper and not Kansas law or Colorado or Alaska?
    The People Think the Constitution Protects Their Rights;
    Government See IT as an Obstacle to be Over-come.

  7. #21
    Senior Member Array rmodel65's Avatar
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    iirc he had his pistol in his trunk and holstered it up in the parking lot....it was not OC
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  8. #22
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Macklin View Post
    Is the judges reliance on NY law proper and not Kansas law or Colorado or Alaska?
    Yes.

    It's persuasive precedent, and it's on search & seizure (4th amendment law) not on a firearm's related issue in and of itself.

    4th Amendment law from liberal states is usually more protective of people's rights to privacy and right not to be detained by the police than it is in other areas.

  9. #23
    Senior Member Array cwblanco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiloSC View Post
    This is just another activist judge legislating from the bench.
    Activist judge? Surely you jest. The issue was whether there was probable cause to detain. Rather than requiring the lack thereof as a part of the offense, it is common for many statutes to be written in a way that casts certain exculpatory conduct as a defense rather than "lack thereof" as a part of the offense. To the extent that the statute has been written in a less than desirable manner (some say backwards or with a backwards burden of proof or going forward with proof) is a legislative shortcoming -- not a judicial shortcoming.

    This means that in a trial, the person claiming the defense has the burden to raise the defense. As to how jury instructions are written -- that will vary from juristiction to jurisdiction.

    Thus, "legislating from the bench" -- I think not. To hold otherwise would be legislating from the bench, and would be drifting back toward unbridled liberalism.

    If it were a killer who had been detained for the 30 minutes, would you be calling him an activist judge soft on crime for the short detention period?

    If he had been detained for a whole day, my opinion is that the LEO's would have been approaching conduct amounting to civil rights violations under these circumstances.

    MORAL TO THE STORY: If you are carrying, be careful not to do your final adjustments in view of LEO's after you have arrived at the parking lot. Get a proper holster, and learn to use it. Avoid doing do anything to generate unneeded reasonable suspician or probable cause. If one is doing all of the obvious concealment adjustments in public view, he is not really doing a very good job of concealing.
    Live every day so that you can, with a clear conscience, look all men in their eyes and tell them to go to hell.

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Bingo! ^^

    Correct on all points, CWBlanco.
    Especially so your moral of the story point.

    Dude made a serious and unwise error.
    He did not know he had been observed by LEOs.
    He did not know LEOs were observing him or anyone else.
    He did know he was doing what he did as in plain sight which is all kinds of not advisable. Sit in your car and do such things as under cover while _concealed_.

    The rest is a tale of cops reacting to his actions as well within reason.
    His treatment per the storys actual report was not unreasonable either and the final result and means by which they released him was also reasonable.

    The only things unreasonable here is that he made the choice to act as he did in the first place AND that he made the choice for some odd reason to take this item to court, as toward an error he made himself to get himself into trouble. Duh.

    Concealed means out of sight and out of view.
    Nothing less. People should know and understand this.

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Concealed
    1 : to prevent disclosure or recognition of <conceal the truth>
    2 : to place out of sight <concealed himself behind the door>

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  11. #25
    Senior Member Array cwblanco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Bingo! ^^

    The rest is a tale of cops reacting to his actions as well within reason.
    His treatment per the storys actual report was not unreasonable either and the final result and means by which they released him was also reasonable.

    The only things unreasonable here is that he made the choice to act as he did in the first place AND that he made the choice for some odd reason to take this item to court, as toward an error he made himself to get himself into trouble. Duh.

    Concealed means out of sight and out of view.
    Nothing less. People should know and understand this.

    - Janq
    Right on Janq.

    I have been attorney for plaintiffs and defendants in cases such as these. When I started reading and determined that it was a civil case, I was preparing myself to read the portion where they detained the fellow all day long and beat the hell out of him. However, when considering the fact that the victim created the suspicion and probable cause, I thought he came out rather well with only the 30 minute delay and no physical or mental abuse. I have been held up almost that long before on a mere traffic violation.
    Live every day so that you can, with a clear conscience, look all men in their eyes and tell them to go to hell.

  12. #26
    Distinguished Member Array TerriLi's Avatar
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    I find one part of the story off. Georgia doesnt have a Concealed Carry License. They have a Carry License, allowing both Open Carry and Concealed Carry....
    I know not what this "overkill" means.

    Honing the knives, Cleaning the longguns, Stocking up ammo.

  13. #27
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwblanco View Post
    ... I have been held up almost that long before on a mere traffic violation.
    Agreed and ditto.

    I've been held and I've been detained (cuffed) for three times that length only to ultimately be released/let free.
    As related to motor vehicle stops.

    This guy is wasted a lot of folks time and tax payer monies for simply not using his noodle and thinking before he acted, with his gun.
    He got off easy and light...And he's upset about that (!?).

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Hope everyone gets behind the guy in his appeals, including the NRA. IF it's legal to carry.... and the appeal is won, it will admonish the Judge against using his personal opinions in judicial findings. An officer cannot "assume" you are doing something illegal if you are carrying a gun legally. It's 'offical' harrassment of people exercising their rights, to dissuade them from exercising those rights. Comparable to harrassing women and /or blacks when they showed up to vote in our history.. and were harrassed and dissuaded in voting.

    You NEVER.... have to RAISE A DEFENSE ..... that's not American Judicial procedure... remember ... innocent until proven quity and the defendant does NOT have to do anything but sit there. The Prosecution 'must' prove it is 1) what the law is they supposedly violated , 2) that the defendant knew that or should have known the law, 3) that they "intentionally" and "knowingly" violated the law.

    Doesn't appear that he violated 'any law' .

    When is "adjusting" your pants illegal. ??

  15. #29
    Senior Member Array rmodel65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Agreed and ditto.

    I've been held and I've been detained (cuffed) for three times that length only to ultimately be released/let free.
    As related to motor vehicle stops.

    This guy is wasted a lot of folks time and tax payer monies for simply not using his noodle and thinking before he acted, with his gun.
    He got off easy and light...And he's upset about that (!?).


    - Janq
    what are you serious for not committing a crime he got off light and it is of note it is legal in GA to carry your Pistol in your hand
    http://georgiapacking.org/caselaw/nunnvstate.htm
    The state of Georgia may not violate the right to openly carry a "breast pistol" in the hand, which is protected by the Second Amendment. In dicta, the court stated that Georgia could regulate or prohibit concealed carry without infringing on the Second Amendment. No state constitutional right to bear arms in 1846.

    The court clarified the scope of the right protected as follows:
    "The right of the whole people, old and young, men, women and boys, and not militia only, to keep and bear arms of every description, and not such merely as are used by the militia, shall not be infringed, curtailed, or broken in upon, in the smallest degree; and all of this for the important end to be attained: the rearing up and qualifying a well-regulated militia, so vitally necessary to the security of a free State."
    its sad and today is the birth date of the bill of rights......


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  16. #30
    New Member Array ls1z28chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Agreed and ditto.

    I've been held and I've been detained (cuffed) for three times that length only to ultimately be released/let free.
    As related to motor vehicle stops.

    This guy is wasted a lot of folks time and tax payer monies for simply not using his noodle and thinking before he acted, with his gun.
    He got off easy and light...And he's upset about that (!?).

    - Janq
    Even though this is completely irrelevant and not operative in any way, the plaintiff was not walking around engaged in open carry looking for an encounter. He parked his car, stepped out, attached his already holstered firearm to his waist, proceeded to secure valuables in his trunk, and then walked to the station. All of this happened while being observed by a MARTA police officer who claims to have been on patrol in the parking lot, but who admits he was sitting around in his POV. Please explain to me how any of those actions constitutes "not thinking before acting."

    Also, please explain to me how being released without charges, after not violating any law, constitutes "being let off light and easy."

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