Concealed Carry=Probable Cause of criminal activity - Page 4

Concealed Carry=Probable Cause of criminal activity

This is a discussion on Concealed Carry=Probable Cause of criminal activity within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Janq Very easy, and simple. 1) Being seen as in viewed by the eyes of persons, whether those persons were cops or ...

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Thread: Concealed Carry=Probable Cause of criminal activity

  1. #46
    Senior Member Array rmodel65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Very easy, and simple.

    1) Being seen as in viewed by the eyes of persons, whether those persons were cops or a civilian the situation remains same, possesing and then holstering said weapon to then...and this is key here that a good number of folk here seem to have overlooked...walk himself to a public mass transportation system and _enter_ it.
    This is not a case of guy stopped at his car upon being seen holstering and there after questioned.
    What is key here is context.

    2) He was stopped, asked what his purpose was as being armed...Upon being prior seen arming himself to then there after enter the mass transit system...To which he was then escorted to a private area for discussion. His carry license/permit was verified and no doubt they ran his name to make sure he didn't have any prior either. He came up clean and his review & interaction with the police was satisfactory. He was returned his gear and released 30 minutes later, no harm no foul.
    That is light and easy as it goes in general and as in specific for civilians stopped by police and inquiry made about why they are armed.
    Proof of this sentiment is featured in this forum in _this_ sub-area weekly (!) as related to other persons stopped for same and less egregious reasons only to find them self cuffed, detained and even in arrested and taken away by cop car as has been featured here weekly for years. The heavy and hard way.
    It's relative.


    there is no way to verify the GA permit unless you call the judge who issued it
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  2. #47
    Senior Member Array rmodel65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwblanco View Post
    That is exactly how I see it, but it seems that we share a minority view from many of these scholars who are posting on this topic.

    Actually, I am quite surprised that he found a lawyer to take this case. Having tried cases for plaintiff and defense for almost 40 years, lawyers assign a unique label to this type of case -- It is called a DOG case. Typically these type of cases are taken on a contingent fee basis. I assure you that the lawyer who took the case has wasted a lot more time than the 30 minutes. Contrary to the belief of many, this is not the type of case that the NRA is going to spend money on.

    The good news is that some lucky lawyer will get someone to pay him a good fee up front to take the case on appeal. The bad news for the client is that he will get no where on an appeal even if it were before the most conservative appellate court in the country.

    The ones who are complaining about the outcome are likely the same ones who are screeming for tort reform to limit lawsuits, and to limit the amount that the lawyers will get paid.

    So Georgia may be an open and concealed carry state. Converting from open to concealed or vice versa in public view, gives reason for suspician.

    Hmmmm -- Could there must be a reason for going concealed? Perhaps it is to avoid the suspician that cost the man 30 minutes. Was he concealed? Obviously not. Someone saw him putting on the holster with the gun and then attempting to carry concealed as he left his car. Contrary to what some are contending, if it is seen in public, it is not concealed.


    John Monroe(VP) and Ed Stone(President) are both members of GCO and they volunteer there services to forward the cause to protect Georgians right bear arms.....
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  3. #48
    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smn View Post
    And JL was at a bus stop, was he not? MARTA also has bus stops.
    It was. It's main point is anonymous tips are not RAS. But it also refused to make a firearms exception to Terry when they had a chance to.

    Hasn't this been a recurring issue with MARTA? I don't think this is the first issue I have heard of. That may be a reason for pushing this interaction so far.

    After reading the linked article in the OP. The cops could have...

    1. Asked for his permit. Assuming he presented it they could have figured out everything was on the up and up.

    2. Assumed he was a criminal and treated him as such, to include detention and most likely trying to figure out what to charge him with.

    I understand that carrying a gun is a touchy subject. Believe me, I OC and fully accept the inconvenience that may or may not accompany it. But once everything is squared away he should have been on his way. In the grand scheme, 30 minutes is not too bad. But I don't think it took 30 minutes to figure out he was good to carry. So was the extra time spent fishing? If so, that's the problem I would have with it.

  4. #49
    Senior Member Array rmodel65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefjason View Post
    It was. It's main point is anonymous tips are not RAS. But it also refused to make a firearms exception to Terry when they had a chance to.

    Hasn't this been a recurring issue with MARTA? I don't think this is the first issue I have heard of. That may be a reason for pushing this interaction so far.
    MARTA - Georgia - Stories From The States - OpenCarry.org - Discussion Forum ?????????????????
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  5. #50
    VIP Member Array Guns and more's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smn View Post
    If a cop sees me carrying and inquires to my license, I can politely tell him to pound sand. GA law only requires me to have it in my possession and not surrender it to him (like a driver's license).
    Good luck with that strategy. It doesn't make any sense to have a permit that no one can see.
    I suspect if you have a firearm, and you refuse a cops order, you will have some lumps.

    As far as the judges ruling, it has to be the stupidest I have heard.
    So if you don't have a permit, you are deemed more peaceful than if you do have a permit. Go figure. Did Jimmy Carter appoint this judge?

  6. #51
    Senior Member Array rmodel65's Avatar
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    iirc its a clinton appointee, and that is correct there is no requirement to show the GFL to anyone....
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  7. #52
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmodel65 View Post
    there is no way to verify the GA permit unless you call the judge who issued it
    That may be but the point for the statement as a reflection of what was reported to have actually occurred overall stands...

    After seeing Raissi's firearms license and driver's license, the officers ran background checks on Raissi and held him, according to Raissi, for half an hour. The officers transported Raissi to a locked area out of the public eye before finally releasing him and returning his firearm and other property.

    Source - Federal judge rules concealed carry is probable cause of criminal activity
    Paragraph three
    ...To which the whole stands as well.

    He was background checked in the interim as prior to release, for just "half an hour".

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  8. #53
    Senior Member Array rmodel65's Avatar
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    a check takes all of about 5 seconds 30 mins is way to long to not be free to leave
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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmodel65 View Post
    a check takes all of about 5 seconds 30 mins is way to long to not be free to leave
    Have to agree with this. A license and photo id with the same names and the bearer should be clearly identified.

  10. #55
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guns and more View Post

    As far as the judges ruling, it has to be the stupidest I have heard.
    So if you don't have a permit, you are deemed more peaceful than if you do have a permit. Go figure. Did Jimmy Carter appoint this judge?
    Nope, that is _not_ the judges judgement...

    That is the misinterpretation toward the reading of the article as by the thread starter and the resulting misleading title of this thread.

    For more on that see my post here as early into when this thread was posted.

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...06-post13.html

    Unfortunately for this thread others prior and thereafter came along and read the thread title alone and/or the parsed bits from the OPs post and ran with that alone as by assumptive stance.

    In the ruling today, Judge Thrash held that merely carrying a concealed firearm justifies such detention and disarmament. He wrote in his opinion that "possession of a firearms license is an affirmative defense to, not an element of, the crimes of boarding [MARTA] with a concealed weapon and carrying a concealed weapon."
    - The not parsed and complete paragraph relating the judges decision statement, which is a more sensical and sensible read.

    Source - http://www.examiner.com/x-5619-Atlan...minal-activity
    Paragraph four
    That sentiment of yours and theOPs and many others here is based on the _view_ of the defendants attorney which itself does not (!) match up at all to nor properly reflect that of the actual decision and statement by the judge as is quoted above.

    John Monroe, Christopher Raissi's attorney, expressed disappointment with the opinion and declared that if the opinion stands its effects will be felt far beyond MARTA:

    The decision means everyone seen carrying a firearm in any place that is prohibited without a license is subject to being stopped, arrested, and prosecuted, even if they have a license. Anyone carrying a firearm in a restaurant that serves alcohol or a state park is fair game. The same goes for police officers. A police officer carrying a firearm in a restaurant, bar, or school is subject to arrest, including a citizen’s arrest, because being a law enforcement officer is an affirmative defense and not an element of the crime.

    Source - http://www.examiner.com/x-5619-Atlan...minal-activity
    Final paragraph of the report
    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  11. #56
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmodel65 View Post
    a check takes all of about 5 seconds 30 mins is way to long to not be free to leave
    That though would not be a _"background check"_.

    A persons background such as do they have any warrants or judicial orders outstanding is not stated on ones motor vehicle and/or firearm permit/license.
    Checking names and faces on those two documents is not as cited in court and quoted a "background check".

    A background check takes far longer than 5 seconds, and anyone who has ever endured same as at the side of the road for just a motor vehicle stop against a moving violation knows it is well within normal to take as long as half an hour.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  12. #57
    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmodel65 View Post
    a check takes all of about 5 seconds 30 mins is way to long to not be free to leave
    Wait...wasn't it all ready posted that it's not that easy to verify a GA permit? If some hoops need to be gone through to verify THAT part a a back ground check, I could see it running longer.

  13. #58
    Senior Member Array rmodel65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    Wait...wasn't it all ready posted that it's not that easy to verify a GA permit? If some hoops need to be gone through to verify THAT part a a back ground check, I could see it running longer.


    son on the weekend you gotta hang around till monday morning? in atlanta every cop can stop me all day long?

    a GCIC check over the radio take about 1 min.....

    there is no way to check the status of a permit esp since the license doesnt have the probates number on it fwiw
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  14. #59
    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmodel65 View Post
    son on the weekend you gotta hang around till monday morning? in atlanta every cop can stop me all day long?

    a GCIC check over the radio take about 1 min.....

    there is no way to check the status of a permit esp since the license doesnt have the probates number on it fwiw
    Pops,


    That depends on the what's being used. If the cop is doing it on an MDT it could take longer pending on system usage, if it's being radioed in to dispatch it could take a while depending on the volume of traffic that the dispatcher is dealing with.

    Most PDs where I've worked (installing, maintaining, repairing public safety 911/Dispatch/radio systems) only have one machine to run NICS and one dispatcher able to log into that terminal at a time, if there's a lot going on that day, back ground checks can take longer.

    Not saying that's what the case was, but stating that every single back ground check should take "X" time is bull. It gets even worse if some one has the same name as a wanted person.

    Edited to add:
    If the duration of the check is really that big of an issue, someone involved with the case needs to file a FOIA claim and get the traffic related to that incident and see what the hold up was.


    For all we know the guys on the scene were waiting on feedback from higher on how to proceed....we just don't know or rather that info has not been presented.

  15. #60
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Ok, rather long set of posting here.

    But the way I see it, the guy made himself suspect by allowing an officer to see him place a gun into a concealed place and enter a bus.

    GA allows OC, great, but the guy was clearly CC when he headed towards the bus. Does GA allow CC for any and everyone or must one have a permit. If a permit is required then the cop had every right to question the guy right then and there. Bus carry is not legal unless you have a CC permit. Cop had every right to stop him and question him about his status/legality whatever one would call it when heading for the bus.

    Should it take 30 minutes to verify the legal status of a permit holder. Heck I don't know. Traffic violations can tak that long some times, I don't know if there is any set time frame that should be allowed for whateve type of stop.

    Should the officer have been able to disarm the fellow, well in Texas he can, I don't know what GA law is. In my mind, an officer who is charged with keeping the peace should be able to disarm an individual during a stop. This doesn't seem unreasonable to me, others are going to disagree, but if being inconvienenced by an officer by being disarmed bothers you that much, maybe you should spend a day in their shoes dealing with bad guys and see if you can tell who does and who doesn't pose a threat to you.

    I think the case was much to do about nothing personally.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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