Martin Gottlieb in the Dayton Daily Snooze

Martin Gottlieb in the Dayton Daily Snooze

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  1. #1
    Ex Member Array Cold Warrior's Avatar
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    Martin Gottlieb in the Dayton Daily Snooze



  2. #2
    Distinguished Member Array lacrosse50's Avatar
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    Article Follows:



    By Martin Gottlieb | Thursday, December 17, 2009, 06:16 PM

    “Many states recently adopted looser gun laws,” a headline said this week about an Associated Press review.

    “In the last two years, 24 states, mostly in the South and West, have passed 47 new laws loosening gun restrictions,” the story said. “Legislatures have allowed firearms to be carried in cars, made it illegal to ask job candidates whether they own a gun, and (more).”

    Says the chief lobbyist of the National Rifle Association, “This is all a coordinated approach.…We’ll rest when all 50 states allow and respect the right of law-abiding people to defend themselves.”

    Time was, the gun lobby presented itself primarily as a defensive force. It was a guardian against the allegedly “slippery slope” toward laws that would keep even hunters and collectors from having firearms.

    But now the NRA is on the offense.

    Ohio passed a law in 2004 allowing people to carry concealed weapons if they pay a fee and pass a safety course. The Republican legislature clearly felt under political pressure to pass it.

    By the end of 2008, the state had seen 143,000 permits issued. That’s about 1.6 percent of adult Ohioans. After all that fuss!

    The percentage says a lot about the ability of sophisticated political interest groups to generate the impression that a lot more people are, shall we say, up in arms than really are.

    Legally concealed weapons haven’t turned Ohio into the Wild West. Nor, on the other hand, have they resulted in any great drop in crime rates.

    A debate about their impact continues. Now a national organization called the Violence Policy Center (VPC) brings a new stat into the discussion.

    It says, “Concealed handgun permit holders have killed at least nine law enforcement officers and 98 private citizens (including 12 shooters who killed themselves after an attack) since May, 2007.”

    Kristen Rand, a VPC spokesman, says, “When the National Rifle Association launched its … campaign … it made this promise: ‘People who get permits… are law-abiding, upstanding community leaders who merely seek to exercise their right to self-defense.’

    “To the contrary,” says Rand, “concealed handgun permit holders are killing people over parking spaces, football games and family arguments.”

    She says that if people had known in advance about the police fatalities, the conceal-and-carry bills never could have been passed.

    The VPC stats don’t indicate that the permit-holders are an exceptionally violent lot, not when you consider the millions across the country who hold permits. The numbers do suggest something about what happens when guns are around.

    One shooter in Utah insisted his crime never would have happened if not for the permit. (Also, he was on seven prescription drugs.)

    In July, 2008, a police officer in suburban Twinsburg in northern Ohio pulled over one Ashford Thompson for playing loud music. Thompson shot him four times in the head with a “pocket pistol,” killing him. Thompson had a permit.

    In 2007, on the Fourth of July, a firefighter with a permit killed three people and wounded two in a dispute over fireworks the three were setting off. The (Cleveland) Plain Dealer reported the shooter being seen by acquaintances as a “ticking time bomb” before the shootings.

    There was a case in Ohio of a 66-year-old man killing himself and his wife; a man killing himself and his girlfriend; and a 5-year-old accidentally killing himself with his father’s gun. (The last one is still pending in court.) All involved permits.

    The VPC gathers its numbers from news accounts (and removes cases that result in acquittals). It’s not an ideal way. But nobody keeps such stats officially.

    News accounts are far from all-inclusive. Sometimes news outlets look into — and report — whether the shooter had a permit; sometimes they don’t.

    (The names of permit holders in Ohio are not released as a group. That’s another fight the gun lobby won. News media can, however, find out if a particular person has a permit.)

    Toby Hoover, executive director of Ohio Coalition Against Gun Violence, a small operation based in Toledo, points out that the VPC numbers are just about fatalities. Nobody seems to have stats on how many non-fatal shootings might involve permits.

    The stats coming from the VPC aren’t the last word in the debate about concealed weapons, of course. But they are worth keeping in mind when proposals come up for still more and more liberalization of gun laws.
    The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
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  3. #3
    Distinguished Member Array lacrosse50's Avatar
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    "The VPC gathers its numbers from news accounts (and removes cases that result in acquittals). It’s not an ideal way. But nobody keeps such stats officially."

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this a bold face lie? I thought the FBI produced a report specifically concerned with Police Officers killed in the line of duty. And I know they produce an omnibus crime report.

    The author didn't fail to include some of the same old one liners, like "concealed handgun permit holders are killing people over parking spaces, football games and family arguments.” and "She says that if people had known in advance about the police fatalities, the conceal-and-carry bills never could have been passed.".

    I wish I could see into the future. I'd win the lotto, decide who can and can't get behind the wheel of a car (sorry bob, you run over betty's dog three years from now, no license for you), and so on.

    Not to be glib but there will always be people who abuse their rights. We have a justice system in place to address those abuses. You can't remove an entire populations rights based on the fact that some percentage of them will abuse them.
    Last edited by lacrosse50; December 18th, 2009 at 05:21 PM. Reason: edited for emphisis
    The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
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  4. #4
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    Stay armed...figures lie, and liars figure...stay safe!
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    Member Array SteveinNEPA's Avatar
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    Ugh.... I WAS having a good day up until reading this trash...

    As I have said before, they will punish (Or try to) MANY for the actions of a FEW

    ~Steve
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    Just because some commie lib anti 2A group SAYS some crimes were committed by CCW holders doesn't mean I believe it for a minute.

    These people have been telling lies for decades. Why should I believe them now?

    Nope! I want cold hard facts! Names, dates, and police reports.

  7. #7
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    Kristen Rand, a VPC spokesman, says, “When the National Rifle Association launched its … campaign … it made this promise: ‘People who get permits… are law-abiding, upstanding community leaders who merely seek to exercise their right to self-defense.’

    “To the contrary,” says Rand, “concealed handgun permit holders are killing people over parking spaces, football games and family arguments.”

    I'm sure Ms Rand can cite corroborative documentation. Oh, what's that you say? She made this up? Oh no!!! Tell me it ain't so.
    "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveinNEPA View Post
    Ugh.... I WAS having a good day up until reading this trash...

    As I have said before, they will punish (Or try to) MANY for the actions of a FEW

    ~Steve
    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    Stay armed...figures lie, and liars figure...stay safe!

    Same old crap from the same old Idiots.
    They will cite time after time the incidents where a permit holder abused the situation, was liquored up/domestic violence, heat of the moment,etc,,etc,,
    BUT they will rarely inform you or all the incidences where a handgun was used ligitimately for SD.

    I got no use for this


    *"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional,
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    VIP Member Array JDE101's Avatar
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    I read the article on the editorial page of the DDN last night and it made me want to puke, but that is the kind of liberal BS the DDN is noted for. It certainly didn't surprise me. The Greene County Dailies (Beavercreek, Xenia, Jamestown and Fairborn) have a relatively new editor who is MUCH more balanced in reporting the news and in editorial policy. There have been a number of pro-gun or at least not anti-gun articles and editorials in these papers in the past few months. And they generally don't carry Mike Peters' rabid anti-NRA, anti-gun editiorial cartoons several times a year, as does the Dayton rag.
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    Oh, what's that you say? She made this up? Oh no!!! Tell me it ain't so.

    Brady bunch TV anti-gunners were instructed to call their pro-gun opponent a racist if they were losing a gun debate.

  11. #11
    Distinguished Member Array jumpwing's Avatar
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    This cracks me up:

    By the end of 2008, [Ohio] had seen 143,000 permits issued. That’s about 1.6 percent of adult Ohioans. After all that fuss!

    The percentage says a lot about the ability of sophisticated political interest groups to generate the impression that a lot more people are, shall we say, up in arms than really are.

    [The VPC statistic] says, “Concealed handgun permit holders have killed at least nine law enforcement officers and 98 private citizens (including 12 shooters who killed themselves after an attack) since May, 2007.”
    One state, 143,000 new permits over four years vs. 9+98 deaths nationwide over two years. Talk about "making a fuss" over small percentages.
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  12. #12
    Ex Member Array Cold Warrior's Avatar
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    It's like those two-minute national-news stories about all of those [half-dozen] airline crashes...during the past thirty years. But we see the sad aftermath on our TV screens! Like those baby cribs and car seats that have killed eight children out 100 million during the past decade or so!

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