OC and the Use Of Force Continuum

This is a discussion on OC and the Use Of Force Continuum within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; What's this Big Mac stuff? Did I miss something?...

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 42

Thread: OC and the Use Of Force Continuum

  1. #16
    New Member Array oldhickory61's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Lincoln, NE
    Posts
    13
    What's this Big Mac stuff? Did I miss something?

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #17
    Member Array Bm7b5's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Sin comentarios
    Posts
    350
    Quote Originally Posted by ItsMyRight2 View Post
    Hickory.....it just personal choice. Who cares what people want to carry.
    My goal is to learn, and that often means hearing the well-reasoned thoughts of others--particularly when they challenge my current thinking. If people just want to make their personal choice and not hear differing opinions, I'm not sure why they'd be interested in even coming to a site like this.
    A traffic ticket is formal recognition of a lapse in situational awareness.

  4. #18
    Member Array ItsMyRight2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    SouthFlorida
    Posts
    315
    Quote Originally Posted by Bm7b5 View Post
    My goal is to learn, and that often means hearing the well-reasoned thoughts of others--particularly when they challenge my current thinking. If people just want to make their personal choice and not hear differing opinions, I'm not sure why they'd be interested in even coming to a site like this.
    Learning and sharing is also why I come to these forums. I love to debate and discuss the points and see different views on an issue. But I also read and write with an open mind and don't bash any ones choice of what they carry.

    There are many scenarios where OC spray could be useful. But if I never use it oh well. I would rather be OVER prepared than UNDER prepared any day. But if you would rather go around drawing on people all the time than thats your choice. I myself prefer to have other options.

    And when someone makes a childish comment such as "only women who are scared of guns carry OC"......well I no longer find their contribution to the argument to be valid.

    Maybe the fact that you are LEO gives you the option to use your firearm as a deterent and wave it around. We as citizens do not have that option. I was always taught that if my gun comes out of the holster...then I have already made the decision to shoot. And I have been in many violent confrontations where someone doesn't need shot or stabbed.And I am also proficient in hand to hand fighting but why risk it. So like I said OC is just another option for me.
    When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.
    The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
    - Thomas Jefferson

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array searcher 45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    TEXAS
    Posts
    4,151
    I carry a lock blade folder as back up, if I chose not to deploy the blade it makes a very good hand club extending about 1/2 inch from bottom of hand, and also adds to the effectiveness of a punch being thrown.

    My small tactical flashlight is another less than lethal weapon I carry all the time. It serves the same purpose as my lock blade folder with blade closed but the empact edge is designed to do damage.

    . You can also hit someone with a pistol and prove a very strong point.

    Point is even lethal weapon can be deployed very effectively in a less than lethal way and still leave one room to be lethal if needed.
    NOT LIVING IN FEAR, JUST READY!!!
    I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness,
    nor the arrow for its swiftness,
    nor the warrior for his glory.
    I love only that which they defend.
    -J.R.R. Tolkien

  6. #20
    Member Array Bm7b5's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Sin comentarios
    Posts
    350
    Quote Originally Posted by searcher 45 View Post
    Point is even lethal weapon can be deployed very effectively in a less than lethal way and still leave one room to be lethal if needed.
    Yes, but under the law you will be considered as having employed lethal force. Also, anyone around you is legally justified in assuming you have employed lethal force if you pull a knife or gun.
    A traffic ticket is formal recognition of a lapse in situational awareness.

  7. #21
    Member Array hengst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    185
    Quote Originally Posted by Bm7b5 View Post
    Yes, but under the law you will be considered as having employed lethal force. Also, anyone around you is legally justified in assuming you have employed lethal force if you pull a knife or gun.
    True
    Led By Love Of Country

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array searcher 45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    TEXAS
    Posts
    4,151
    Quote Originally Posted by Bm7b5 View Post
    Yes, but under the law you will be considered as having employed lethal force. Also, anyone around you is legally justified in assuming you have employed lethal force if you pull a knife or gun.
    Texas Castle Doctrine allows one to stand and fight with lethal force against assault or robbery etc.
    NOT LIVING IN FEAR, JUST READY!!!
    I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness,
    nor the arrow for its swiftness,
    nor the warrior for his glory.
    I love only that which they defend.
    -J.R.R. Tolkien

  9. #23
    Member Array JeffMRC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Spokane, WA
    Posts
    56
    Not everyone is proficient in hand-to-hand combat. And you don't know the proficiency of the BG. I've seen a single hit from the smaller weaker fighter knock a person down. It wasn't the punch, but the head hitting the ground that caused the coma. For that matter, who's to say the BG is going to be restrained after just beating you up. This is not TV folks. If you have a gun and OC or a knife and the BG gets the upper hand and gets ahold of your gun then you're toast. You make the call, but at 21 feet you better be right.
    "I wish I would have done the hard things when they were easier to do."

  10. #24
    Member Array Stormtruck2's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Mechanicsville, Iowa
    Posts
    166

    Cool H2H

    The only fair fight is the one you lose. I was trained that in a fight, anything less than death and you got lucky. Meaning:
    1) Avoid the fight if you can
    2)have backup immediately available if possible
    3)if your attacked END the fight quickly however you must. Do not stand toe to toe with them.
    4)Avoid the fight if you can. (yes I know I repeated it)
    When the chips are down, only hits count

    Train as you fight, fight as you train.
    Sig 220-45,Sig 225-9mm,Sig 226-.40,Bernelli M1,Bernelli Nova, SW 4340-.40
    Glock 19,Llama Mini .45,U-238 WMD, (so the anti's say),and others

  11. #25
    VIP Member
    Array gunthorp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    home office
    Posts
    2,355
    OC can be a two edged sword in close quarters or if the wind is wrong. IMO, if alpha commands, the fence, a blinding flashlight, and movement aren't working, wasting time on OC isn't going to help, unless you have more than two hands.
    Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776

    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
    -Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95

  12. #26
    Member Array hengst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    185
    We can all come up with countless reasons or thought processes that make OC a non-option. We can do the same discussion for when a knife, hand to hand, a flashilight or yes even a firearm are also a non-option.

    OC is another tool that can be used and should not be as easily discounted as some people do. Whenever something has this many differing views it deserves a close look from "both sides".

    A persons decision to or not to carry OC is ok by me. I would just hate for a new person to read some well worded posts and reasonings as to why OC is not for them and then not even consider a less than lethal option.

    Oc is not and end all be all but...people should not run and throw their OC away or decide not to to carry it. I hope people weigh the pros and cons for themselves and make an informed decision. Whatever the decision train and practice to support that decision.

    Most things are not absolutes like the decision for or against OC. Not every situation can be handled by presenting a firearm, or 2 to the chest one to the head, I wish it were that simple but it isn't.

    IMHO and experience, seondary less than lethal option should always be added to the toolbox. If you decide on hand to hand, taser, or OC it is fine, but carrying a firearm without a less than lethal option, because you "might become confused" is not wise and if you fear you will then train and train until you are comfortable. Get a, suited to you and informed, less than lethal option train, wargame and think things thru.

    I still maintain the view that if a person cannot distinguish between when less than lethal and lethal should be used then they do not have the basic knowledge to carry or to make a good decision. I thought that is what this thread is about, use of force continum.
    Led By Love Of Country

  13. #27
    Member Array MikeFontenot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Boulder, Colorado
    Posts
    159
    Here's a scenario (IMO) where OC might be useful:

    Suppose you hear someone breaking into your car, out in your driveway. Suppose your state laws forbid you to use lethal force to protect your property...perhaps those laws forbid you to even display your gun.

    What do you do? Do you call 911, and then watch the guy hotwire your car and drive off? If that is unacceptable for you, what's the alternative?

    It seems to me that OC might be just the ticket in that case. But I agree that, if you DO decide to use (or, at least, threaten to use) OC, you had better be ready to quickly escalate to lethal force if the perp attacks you as a response.

    Mike Fontenot

  14. #28
    Member Array Bm7b5's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Sin comentarios
    Posts
    350
    Quote Originally Posted by hengst View Post
    I still maintain [...] that if a person cannot distinguish between when less than lethal and lethal should be used then they do not have the basic knowledge to carry or to make a good decision.
    Fair statement. And that is a decision that must be made whether you carry OC or not. Thus, if carrying OC slows your decision making, it should only be in the case that you've already decided you are in a less-than-lethal situation and are trying to decide between hand-to-hand, striking object, OC, or whatever.
    A traffic ticket is formal recognition of a lapse in situational awareness.

  15. #29
    VIP Member
    Array gunthorp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    home office
    Posts
    2,355
    hengst +1

    Of course the knife and gun are always going to be viewed as lethal force when in your hand, even if they're not used for that purpose. They can be thought of as the last resort on the force continuum. IMO the fence, an outstreched hand that means "stop," the loud command voice, "Sir, stay away, please!" or "I can't help you, sir!" and movement when possible to create distance all represent the best uses of less than lethal force for the civilian.

    Both OC and Taser, where legal, can be effective compliance tools under the right circumstances when skillfully employed, by the off hand, so that the strong hand is still free. Both these tools have been known to cause death. The decision to carry them is personal according to an individual's situation and common sense.

    However, I know of no reports of injury from shining the flashlight into the eyes of an aggressor. The temporary physical incapacitation works in spite of drug or mental insensitivity to pain, fear, or rational thought. For a host of reasons, I carry a small, powerful flashlight at all times.

    Escalating the force continuum focuses on subduing and restraining techniques, all of which require contact. Contact weapons like flashlights, hands, head, elbows, and feet, although not normally seen as deadly weapons, can most certainly be. Contact ought to be avoided by citizens unskilled in grappling, martial arts, or grizzly hand to hand. This is also true for some of us older, slower, and more frail.

    That pretty much leaves the gun for us. Its use depends upon distance. Distance depends upon early threat recognition and quick employment of less than lethal tools. However, when we are faced with a sudden surprise attack which pegs our instinctive life meter, we won't have time to decide which less than lethal wiget to use. So much for the force continuum. To survive, I suggest one learn to draw and fire a 45 in half a second.
    Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776

    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
    -Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95

  16. #30
    Member Array HardCorps79's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Pacific Northwest
    Posts
    156
    OC would be useful when force is required, but not deadly force. For example, what would you, as a tactically trained mature adult do, if some punk 140lb teen decides he wants to assault you for whatever bizarre teenage reason. No point getting into a fistfight with the punk. Maybe you don't want to go to the ground and grapple the kid. You certainly don't want to shoot him. Blammo- OC! Problem solved.

    Same thing if us "big strong gun-toting males" are accosted by a crazed drugged-up female (it's happened to me in the city before!). You know, the ones that are scantilly dressed with open sores on their arms and legs trying to solicit outside a 7-11. Can you say probable HIV infection? And desperate for your attention and money. But you don't know for sure. And it would be a media field day if you decided to ground and pound a poor week dispossessed woman. Or even worse, shot her, " 'Cause she probably had AIDS" There are countless scenarios where less than lethal force is justifiable and permissible under the law, but deadly force is not. The world's an ugly place and it's our duty and responsibility to live at a higher level.

    As a hand-to-hand combat instructor, I'm more than capable of handling myself against all but the largest, strongest and/or professionally trained assailants. But that doesn't make it safe, fun or otherwise appealing. A couple squirts of OC and I save myself a ton of legal hassle. Spray, retreat to a safe area and call 911 to report the incident.

    My experiences in combat have reinforced the absolute truth that killing, right or wrong, is never pleasant. Death is not pleasant for anyone involved. You never want to kill someone you don't have to.

    And even in Iraq there were many instances where we had to use force, but were not authorized to use deadly force. The Continuum of Force is just that- a continuum. It is fluid and may rapidly escalate or deescalate depending both on your actions and some that may be beyond your control.

    BTW,
    OC can also be handy against annoying little yappy aggressive dogs that may or may not have a collar and may or may not belong to someone in your neighborhood. Right or wrong, shooting someone's pet is a guaranteed lawsuit in this day and age. Hosing the little mutt with pepper spray to potentially avoid rabies or a laceration looks a lot better to local authorities than popping a .44 Magnum into a Mini-Pin.

    Semper Fi
    NRA Certified Instructor (6 years)
    Former LEO/DOD Contractor
    Active Duty Marine (Martial Arts Instructor)
    Glock 17, Kel-Tec P-11, S&W Model 60, various rifles

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. September 25-26, 2010 - Suarez International Force on Force Gunfighting - Tyler, TX
    By Sweatnbullets in forum Defensive Carry & Tactical Training
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: September 18th, 2010, 01:06 AM
  2. The Lima Review of Suarez International Force on Force Training with Steve Collins
    By limatunes in forum Defensive Carry & Tactical Training
    Replies: 40
    Last Post: September 15th, 2010, 10:04 PM
  3. Opinion requested for new online survey - Force on Force Training.
    By WAPS in forum Defensive Carry & Tactical Training
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: May 21st, 2007, 09:26 PM
  4. Movement Inside of the Fight Continuum
    By Sweatnbullets in forum Defensive Carry & Tactical Training
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: November 30th, 2006, 08:20 PM
  5. The Sight Continuum
    By 7677 in forum Defensive Carry & Tactical Training
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: July 19th, 2006, 09:34 AM

Search tags for this page

colorado force continuum

,
michigan force continuum
,
michigan use of force continuum
,

michigan use of force continuum diagram

,
military force continum
,
oc use of force continuum
,
sc use of force continuum
,
use of force continuum
,
use of force continuum diagram
,
use of force continuum oc
,
use of force with oc
,
youtube search use of force continuum
Click on a term to search for related topics.