OC and the Use Of Force Continuum

This is a discussion on OC and the Use Of Force Continuum within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by HardCorps79 Can you say probable HIV infection? Funny you should say that. The only time I was ever involved in a physical ...

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Thread: OC and the Use Of Force Continuum

  1. #31
    Member Array Bm7b5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HardCorps79 View Post
    Can you say probable HIV infection?
    Funny you should say that. The only time I was ever involved in a physical altercation as an adult that involved me striking someone was in Spain. A gypsy busted open my car window and grabbed a bag out of my car. I chased him down and busted him up. He was laying against a wall on the side of the street, me standing over him, and blood dripping down his face, when four Spanish police officers came running toward us. They yelled at me to stop, move away from the guy, and check if I had any blood on me. They said this guy was a known criminal in the area and they knew he had HIV.

    WOW!
    A traffic ticket is formal recognition of a lapse in situational awareness.

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  3. #32
    Member Array hengst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunthorp View Post
    hengst +1

    Of course the knife and gun are always going to be viewed as lethal force when in your hand, even if they're not used for that purpose. They can be thought of as the last resort on the force continuum. IMO the fence, an outstreched hand that means "stop," the loud command voice, "Sir, stay away, please!" or "I can't help you, sir!" and movement when possible to create distance all represent the best uses of less than lethal force for the civilian.

    Both OC and Taser, where legal, can be effective compliance tools under the right circumstances when skillfully employed, by the off hand, so that the strong hand is still free. Both these tools have been known to cause death. The decision to carry them is personal according to an individual's situation and common sense.

    However, I know of no reports of injury from shining the flashlight into the eyes of an aggressor. The temporary physical incapacitation works in spite of drug or mental insensitivity to pain, fear, or rational thought. For a host of reasons, I carry a small, powerful flashlight at all times.

    Escalating the force continuum focuses on subduing and restraining techniques, all of which require contact. Contact weapons like flashlights, hands, head, elbows, and feet, although not normally seen as deadly weapons, can most certainly be. Contact ought to be avoided by citizens unskilled in grappling, martial arts, or grizzly hand to hand. This is also true for some of us older, slower, and more frail.

    That pretty much leaves the gun for us. Its use depends upon distance. Distance depends upon early threat recognition and quick employment of less than lethal tools. However, when we are faced with a sudden surprise attack which pegs our instinctive life meter, we won't have time to decide which less than lethal wiget to use. So much for the force continuum. To survive, I suggest one learn to draw and fire a 45 in half a second.
    Now that is what I am talking about. I like the way you explained the thought process, pros and cons. Not simply, "do not do it" or to heck with OC I'll shoot any aggressor regardless. (Whoever does this let us know how it worked out for you) I think that type of stuff is detrimental to a new person seeking knowledge, this way a little thinking will go with the advice.

    I still have a small difference of opinion on a few parts of the post, but that is life.

    One thing we an agree 100% on is the use of a flashlight. I can fill a small book with stories of how a flashlight probably saved my behind. Also, (oops 2 things) The fence..good job explaining.Alot is to be said for a commanding in charge appearance and voice. A hand is up and you are moving..2 other tools that every firearm carrier should STRONGLY consider using.

    Without going into depth and just generally speaking.
    I find it interesting that the reasoning behind not having a less than lethal option is to keep down reaction time and confusion which could be detrimental. Could a portion of that problem be the fear that is instilled into firearms carriers. By fear I mean "you will be sued" your going to jail, you'll lose your job etc" and all of that fear mongering that is spread about.
    That stuff, if instilled in the brain, will cause a delay and an unconscious second guess. I bet this is a factor. How about we become familiar with bad situations for knowledge sake but concentrate on what we can do and when to do it instead of the horror stories being constantly drilled in during training or instruction.
    Led By Love Of Country

  4. #33
    Member Array LethalStang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HardCorps79 View Post
    OC would be useful when force is required, but not deadly force. For example, what would you, as a tactically trained mature adult do, if some punk 140lb teen decides he wants to assault you for whatever bizarre teenage reason. No point getting into a fistfight with the punk. Maybe you don't want to go to the ground and grapple the kid. You certainly don't want to shoot him. Blammo- OC! Problem solved.

    Same thing if us "big strong gun-toting males" are accosted by a crazed drugged-up female (it's happened to me in the city before!). You know, the ones that are scantilly dressed with open sores on their arms and legs trying to solicit outside a 7-11. Can you say probable HIV infection? And desperate for your attention and money. But you don't know for sure. And it would be a media field day if you decided to ground and pound a poor week dispossessed woman. Or even worse, shot her, " 'Cause she probably had AIDS" There are countless scenarios where less than lethal force is justifiable and permissible under the law, but deadly force is not. The world's an ugly place and it's our duty and responsibility to live at a higher level.

    As a hand-to-hand combat instructor, I'm more than capable of handling myself against all but the largest, strongest and/or professionally trained assailants. But that doesn't make it safe, fun or otherwise appealing. A couple squirts of OC and I save myself a ton of legal hassle. Spray, retreat to a safe area and call 911 to report the incident.

    My experiences in combat have reinforced the absolute truth that killing, right or wrong, is never pleasant. Death is not pleasant for anyone involved. You never want to kill someone you don't have to.

    And even in Iraq there were many instances where we had to use force, but were not authorized to use deadly force. The Continuum of Force is just that- a continuum. It is fluid and may rapidly escalate or deescalate depending both on your actions and some that may be beyond your control.

    BTW,
    OC can also be handy against annoying little yappy aggressive dogs that may or may not have a collar and may or may not belong to someone in your neighborhood. Right or wrong, shooting someone's pet is a guaranteed lawsuit in this day and age. Hosing the little mutt with pepper spray to potentially avoid rabies or a laceration looks a lot better to local authorities than popping a .44 Magnum into a Mini-Pin.

    Semper Fi
    Excellent post and well articulated.
    Quote Originally Posted by rottkeeper View Post
    If you are living your life worried about being a victim all the time and not enjoying life to the fullest, you are already a victim...
    -You don't know what you don't see-

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  5. #34
    Member Array hengst's Avatar
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    HardCorps79
    +1

    Exactly!!!
    Pretty good for a Marine
    Led By Love Of Country

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    Member Array Stormtruck2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bm7b5 View Post
    Funny you should say that. The only time I was ever involved in a physical altercation as an adult that involved me striking someone was in Spain. A gypsy busted open my car window and grabbed a bag out of my car. I chased him down and busted him up. He was laying against a wall on the side of the street, me standing over him, and blood dripping down his face, when four Spanish police officers came running toward us. They yelled at me to stop, move away from the guy, and check if I had any blood on me. They said this guy was a known criminal in the area and they knew he had HIV.

    WOW!

    What this perchance in Rota Spain?
    When the chips are down, only hits count

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  7. #36
    Member Array Bm7b5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormtruck2 View Post
    What this perchance in Rota Spain?
    It happened in El Puerto de Santa Maria, but I was living in Rota.
    A traffic ticket is formal recognition of a lapse in situational awareness.

  8. #37
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    I carry OC spray, flashlight, and a knife too. Why? I am not going to risk my job by carrying my handgun at work. And, I work at night (flashlight), with boxes (knife), and around a rough part of town (spray). If that doesn't work and I happen to get to my truck it will get really ugly. I carry my spray on my weak side. If I go for the spray I can still get my hands on my handgun. I just decided I did not want my only option to be shooting someone. Like I have heard before, when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by HardCorps79 View Post
    OC would be useful when force is required, but not deadly force. For example, what would you, as a tactically trained mature adult do, if some punk 140lb teen decides he wants to assault you for whatever bizarre teenage reason. No point getting into a fistfight with the punk. Maybe you don't want to go to the ground and grapple the kid. You certainly don't want to shoot him. Blammo- OC! Problem solved. ........

    As a hand-to-hand combat instructor, I'm more than capable of handling myself against all but the largest, strongest and/or professionally trained assailants. But that doesn't make it safe, fun or otherwise appealing. A couple squirts of OC and I save myself a ton of legal hassle. Spray, retreat to a safe area and call 911 to report the incident..........
    +1 +1
    When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.
    The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
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  10. #39
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    Good post HardCorps79. Funny you should mention those dogs. Our 4 slow mastifs are on the ground level (they don't do well with stairs) but the min-pins upstairs are so quick they could probably dodge a bullet.
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    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
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  11. #40
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    I was in on the thread for posting carry rigs where this discussion was born.

    I understand the point of some LEOs getting their minds stuck in the OODA loop of seeing a situation, deciding what it is, choosing what to do, and implementing that decision....or getting gummed up in that situation and not making a decision fast enough.
    That is a training issue, not a force continuum issue...IMO.

    Before I became a LEO, I carried a pistol, 2 mags, knife, OC, and at times flashlight.
    Reason for OC: there are times in public that we come in contact (not literally) with people that are not armed, don't present a threat that will require or allow legally the use of deadly force. There are times when someone needs spraying rather than a gun pointed at them, usually for legal reasons (varies state to state). Some folks may get in serious trouble for pulling a gun on a guy begging for money in the walmart parking lot vs spraying the guy when he won't go away (I know, its just an example)

    I agree that officer's telling an ARMED perp multiple times to drop the weapon is ridiculous. If someone has a gun in hand its not time to talk its time to shoot.
    If civilian or LEO are faced with someone presenting a deadly weapon (gun, knife, tire iron, baseball bat) its time to shoot, not talk, not OC, not taser.

    LEO and civilians alike.......this means training and mindset....get 'em right.
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  12. #41
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    This thread isn't in the "cop talk" section, it's in the "concealed carry" section. So I take the position that there is no continuum. I tell people (clients and those who show up for my Virginia firearms law lectures) that the choice is binary. It's like a light switch, on or off. The only time a person who does not have to serve a search warrant, subdue a dangerous felon, or hold one prisoner (i.e., a cop) should ever touch a gun, or even make reference to the fact that he's carrying is when the self-defense rule applies.

    Lethal force is excusable when a person has a reasonable, good faith belief, based on a body of objective fact, that he, or an innocent third party, is faced with an immediate threat of serious bodily injury.

    Almost every word in that definition is important. If it comes together in such a way that you think, "it's my life or his", then make it his. Otherwise, don't even think about touching the gun. It may be a crime or civilly actionable for you to make a threat, even where justified. There's a big difference between, "You're making me very nervous, keep your distance!" and "Come any closer, and I'll shoot." Both may have the same consequences, but the latter may be brandishing a firearm at the least and assault with a deadly weapon at the most, even if you didn't touch the gun.
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  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    This thread isn't in the "cop talk" section, it's in the "concealed carry" section. So I take the position that there is no continuum. I tell people (clients and those who show up for my Virginia firearms law lectures) that the choice is binary. It's like a light switch, on or off. The only time a person who does not have to serve a search warrant, subdue a dangerous felon, or hold one prisoner (i.e., a cop) should ever touch a gun, or even make reference to the fact that he's carrying is when the self-defense rule applies.

    Lethal force is excusable when a person has a reasonable, good faith belief, based on a body of objective fact, that he, or an innocent third party, is faced with an immediate threat of serious bodily injury.
    we are in agreement...however its not the full story of the discussion...there are other situations where pulling a gun on someone isn't necessary but going using some other sort of mechanism is necessary....hand to hand, or other tool on someone that needs convincing to leave you alone
    so in a sense...there is a "civilian" continuum....if you see someone that isn't presenting a deadly threat but is threatening to assault you (even in a minor fashion) you may not be able to walk away, leave etc, they may need some pepper seasoning, palm strike, kick to the whatever, that to me is understanding the threat and choosing the proper defensive measure...or force continuum
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    If loose gun laws are good for criminals why do criminals support gun control?

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