OC and the Use Of Force Continuum

This is a discussion on OC and the Use Of Force Continuum within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; New member OldHickory61 made a remark, that was interpreted as deragatory, about people who carry OC spray in the http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...ry-set-up.html thread. TheGreatGonzo had some good ...

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Thread: OC and the Use Of Force Continuum

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    Member Array Bm7b5's Avatar
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    OC and the Use Of Force Continuum

    New member OldHickory61 made a remark, that was interpreted as deragatory, about people who carry OC spray in the http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...ry-set-up.html thread. TheGreatGonzo had some good replies, and overall I think there is some really good "food for thought" from both OldHickory61 and TheGreatGonzo.

    Given that criminals, by nature of what they do, often have the advantage of action vs reaction on the armed law-abiding citizen, does adding a non-lethal weapon like OC spray help or hinder and armed citizen?

    John Bostain, and instructor for the Enforcement Operations Division of the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center argued, in respect to LEOs work, that Use of Force Continuums " try to anticipate the suspect’s actions and equate them with a predetermined officer response."(*) He went on to say "Use of Force continuums are a cognitive tool, and they’re not very useful in the rapidly evolving dynamics of a critical incident."

    It certainly seems to me the logic is relavent to an armed civilian, who must make rapid choices in stressful, dynamic, evolving situations. Does adding OC spray to one's EDC actually put one in danger by increasing his decision matrix under stressful situations? Is there a way to train that reduces the ambiguity that carrying OC spray brings while retaining the benefits?

    I've taken handgun training and one of the key things that was emphasized was universality and simplicity of our systems. In that context, I think this is an interesting discussion and would love to hear some informed opinions.

    *Use of Force Continuum (podcast transcript) — Federal Law Enforcement Training Center
    A traffic ticket is formal recognition of a lapse in situational awareness.

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  3. #2
    Member Array hengst's Avatar
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    Nothing wrong with having less than lethal options. I think alot of instructors try to dumb things up a bit to much so they can sound cool or informed or whatever.
    If a person knows the laws intimately it takes alot of wondering and indeciveness out of the picture.

    As far as use of force continums HYPOTHOSIS from John Bostain goes..whatever. How is it that I can teach an 18-19 y/o PVT use of force, escalation of force and rules of engagement and they act accordingly after one heck of a boom goes off followed by small arms. Or crowd control scenarios. Alot more involved but trying to keep it short. The guys that have been in Iraq/Afghan. know what I mean. Sure stuff goes wrong but overall these young Soldiers act accordingly and I expect an LEO to be able to learn to do the same.

    A great training tool is to wargame or roleplay scenarios in your head during the day. The brain is better than we credit it for. constant wargaming will improve reaction times and you will already have an idea as to what you will do.
    How many of these trainers have actually had force on force altercations? Not just regurgutating info? And I dont mean 1 x 20 yrs ago.
    I am 100% against limiting my options to protect myself and believe in alot of options.

    A little devils advocate..should we not learn to fight (mma krag or whatever your poison) because it will confuse us in a SD scenario? Same answer goes for OC, knives, striking objects.

    A pair of vice grips will work on anything, but we have more tools in our toolboxes than that.

    Add more tools to your SD toolbox. Train, wargame and have confidence. And please stop drinking the kool-aid phsychobabil hoqwash you can do whatever ou train to do so don't limit yourself. Of course if you "don't have the time" or desire to be better then please stick to your gun only defense
    Last edited by hengst; December 28th, 2009 at 02:58 PM. Reason: forgot info
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    Member Array ScubaDuba's Avatar
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    I carry spray so that if I am accosted by someone who isn't carrying a knife or gun, I have a defensive option other than my hands, or my weapon.
    Healthy children will not fear life, if their parents have integrity enough not to fear death.
    -TIME DEUM ET OPERARE IUSTITIAM--

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    Member Array LethalStang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScubaDuba View Post
    I carry spray so that if I am accosted by someone who isn't carrying a knife or gun, I have a defensive option other than my hands, or my weapon.
    Exactly. Not all self-defense situations require lethal force, but if i "see" gun or knife, the weapon comes out.
    Quote Originally Posted by rottkeeper View Post
    If you are living your life worried about being a victim all the time and not enjoying life to the fullest, you are already a victim...
    -You don't know what you don't see-

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    Member Array hengst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScubaDuba View Post
    I carry spray so that if I am accosted by someone who isn't carrying a knife or gun, I have a defensive option other than my hands, or my weapon.
    exactly..Oc will slow em down and you dont have to get as physically involved especially since some of us have a tendancy to keep hitting for a while..even when the threat has been "legally" stopped and sd no longer exists. Stuff could keep a guy out of court/jail I think.
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    Senior Member Array Keltyke's Avatar
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    Does adding OC spray to one's EDC actually put one in danger by increasing his decision matrix under stressful situations?
    It's true that not all social situations require lethal force, but things have a way of going to hell in a hand basket really quickly. OC should be used only IF you're about 99.9% sure the perp isn't armed with ANYTHING. That's a decision that must be made in about a half second and you'd better not be wrong.

    Drawing a gun doesn't mean you MUST shoot. It only means you're justified to shoot. Oftentimes simply showing a gun and determination to use it is enough to scare off a perp. Criminals like it easy - they don't want a gun fight with a determined citizen.

    OC is sometimes not very effective on someone doped up on PCP or angel dust, and it can be ineffective on a mental, too. These people will not stop and must be stopped.

    To me, an aimed weapon and a commanding, "Stop or I'll shoot you." is the same as pepper spray, but with the added advantage that nothing else needs to be done (except pull) if the perp doesn't stop.

    Also, a gun is much more menacing and gets the perp's attention quicker than a can of OC.

    On the street, there's no such thing as a "fair fight". You MUST escalate to survive.

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    Member Array hengst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltyke View Post
    It's true that not all social situations require lethal force, but things have a way of going to hell in a hand basket really quickly. OC should be used only IF you're about 99.9% sure the perp isn't armed with ANYTHING. That's a decision that must be made in about a half second and you'd better not be wrong.

    Drawing a gun doesn't mean you MUST shoot. It only means you're justified to shoot. Oftentimes simply showing a gun and determination to use it is enough to scare off a perp. Criminals like it easy - they don't want a gun fight with a determined citizen.

    OC is sometimes not very effective on someone doped up on PCP or angel dust, and it can be ineffective on a mental, too. These people will not stop and must be stopped.

    To me, an aimed weapon and a commanding, "Stop or I'll shoot you." is the same as pepper spray, but with the added advantage that nothing else needs to be done (except pull) if the perp doesn't stop.

    Also, a gun is much more menacing and gets the perp's attention quicker than a can of OC.

    On the street, there's no such thing as a "fair fight". You MUST escalate to survive.
    So we are on the street. I am mad at you and witnessess see that...I walk towards you and tell you I am gonna kick your butt...not kill you but kick your butt.. You pull your pistol I keep walking..with my hands up saying loudly for all to hear please dont shoot. Then quietly in a whisper...you can hear...I'm gonna kick your butt. I keep walking towards you...You shoot me over a fist fight....congratulations...Try escalation of intimacy in your jail sale for a few years ...or you get the crap beat out of you and I am on youtube because the witnesses made a movie (something similar happened to me except i did not draw or got to jail or get mybut kicked)

    Even street scum know "an honest joe" wont shoot an unarmed man...because it equals jail
    Last edited by hengst; December 28th, 2009 at 05:42 PM. Reason: typo argghh laptop
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    New Member Array oldhickory61's Avatar
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    Bm7b5,
    Thanks for bringing up John Bostaine. I have sat through several of his lectures. He is an excellent instructor and is at the top of my list of subject matter experts when it comes to use of force.
    Meet the Advisory Board

    hengst,
    Take it easy bud. Before you go shootin' down Bostain you need to realize that military is totally different than law enforcement. I've done both, and believe me a force continuum fails on the military side as well. Especially when you have embedded press. You could imagine my reaction when we start taking fire and I have one of my guys look at me and ask if it's OK to shoot back. We're talking about a guy that you thought was a steely eyed killer in the rear. Perhaps I failed him as a leader, but you would have never thought that he would be one to hesitate. Thank you for your service, but training 18/19 PVT's is not as easy as you make it sound.

    Bco. 3/75 RGR RGT 97-99
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    Member Array LethalStang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hengst View Post
    So we are on the street. I am mad at you and witnessess see that...I walk towards you and tell you I am gonna kick your butt...not kill you but kick your butt.. You pull your pistol I keep walking..with my hands up saying loudly for all to hear please dont shoot. Then quietly in a whisper...you can hear...I'm gonna kick your butt. I keep walking towards you...You shoot me over a fist fight....congratulations...Try escalation of intimacy in your jail sale for a few years ...or you get the crap beat out of you and I am on youtube because the witnesses made a movie (something similar happened to me except i did not draw or got to jail or get mybut kicked)

    Even street scum know "an honest joe" wont shoot an unarmed man...because it equals jail
    EXACTLY !!!! Just because we have permits to carry doesnt mean we have free reign on the BG's. I think most of us are grown enough to use discretion about when to use a gun and when to use OC.
    Quote Originally Posted by rottkeeper View Post
    If you are living your life worried about being a victim all the time and not enjoying life to the fullest, you are already a victim...
    -You don't know what you don't see-

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    Member Array hengst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldhickory61 View Post
    Bm7b5,
    Thanks for bringing up John Bostaine. I have sat through several of his lectures. He is an excellent instructor and is at the top of my list of subject matter experts when it comes to use of force.
    Meet the Advisory Board

    hengst,
    Take it easy bud. Before you go shootin' down Bostain you need to realize that military is totally different than law enforcement. I've done both, and believe me a force continuum fails on the military side as well. Especially when you have embedded press. You could imagine my reaction when we start taking fire and I have one of my guys look at me and ask if it's OK to shoot back. We're talking about a guy that you thought was a steely eyed killer in the rear. Perhaps I failed him as a leader, but you would have never thought that he would be one to hesitate. Thank you for your service, but training 18/19 PVT's is not as easy as you make it sound.

    Bco. 3/75 RGR RGT 97-99
    HHC 2/502 Scouts 00-04
    I agree with what you are saying however If you get rid of escalation of force or dumb it down to much it will also fail miserably, just as will complex use of force policies.

    Folks that carry firearms (civ,leo,armed forces) need a back up plan. I am sure you know not everything can be solved with a firearm. Not leaving a secondary option will cause a death as will information/option overload mated with insufficient training.

    I have many other expieriences other than military, that was an example. You are right it is not easy to train Soldiers but the degree of training comes out in the heat. A proper command/leadership climate is also very important to help with the judgement calls.

    I hope i didn't sound harsh in my post. Something I am very passionate about is some of the fear mongering that goes on. Masaas Ayoob is a perfect example. He is, rightly so,a very trusted source for SD but he contributes greatly to the fear. If we dwell to much on a few bad cases/examples of after the shoot and keep that in our minds we WILL falter when the heat is on. Far to many CCW holders are out of shape, can't fight, have nobackup option and spend way to much what iffing to the point of paranoia.

    Know your laws, wargame, train and plan with good equipment and make a decision. The worst thing that a person can do is fail to act.

    Hope that explains my mindset a little.

    BTW I also HATE seeing folks overloaded with 50 lbs of gear (geardo's). Yes it can hinder decision making to have to much but do not throw it all away. Common sense is a friend as well as the quality training.

    So i guess I agree to agree, even though we disagree a little And thanks for your past and continued service
    Last edited by hengst; December 28th, 2009 at 06:15 PM. Reason: add
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    Member Array Bm7b5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hengst View Post
    I think alot of instructors try to dumb things up a bit to much so they can sound cool or informed or whatever[...]As far as use of force continums HYPOTHOSIS from John Bostain goes..whatever[...]Masaas Ayoob is a perfect example[...]he contributes greatly to the fear.
    You make a sweeping, dismissive, generalization about "a lot of instructors", and you dismiss out of hand two nationally recognized, well-regarded, use of force experts. There is certainly room for disagreement, even among experts, but the layman should be cautious about casually dismissing expert advice.

    Of course, that doesnít mean we should throw out common sense and the ability to think for ourselves.

    Based on training I've received, and my personal experience in stressful situations, I'm a firm believer in simplification of self-defense systems. I think this holds true especially for the non-expert, and most of us (myself included) are in that category. What this means with respect to the armed civilian carrying both OC spray AND a handgun, Iím not sure. To date, Iíve been pretty confident that carrying OC spray in addition to a handgun is a very good idea. Iíll continue to do so. But, as OldHickory61 pointed out, it does complicate the decision matrix and can reduce reaction time, which I hadnít seriously thought much about.

    So my hope is that some people who have really thought this through in depth can provide some relevant information.
    A traffic ticket is formal recognition of a lapse in situational awareness.

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    Senior Member Array Keltyke's Avatar
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    Try escalation of intimacy in your jail sale for a few years ...or you get the crap beat out of you and I am on youtube because the witnesses made a movie (something similar happened to me except i did not draw or got to jail or get mybut kicked)

    Even street scum know "an honest joe" wont shoot an unarmed man...because it equals jail
    Without resorting to innuendo and sarcasm - in SC, I am permitted to shoot if I "believe I am in imminent danger of loss of life or serious bodily injury or actually be in such danger."

    I never said I was an "honest joe". I'll evaluate each situation and act accordingly to survive. I'll repeat - fighting "fair" on the street will get you killed.

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    Member Array hengst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bm7b5 View Post
    You make a sweeping, dismissive, generalization about "a lot of instructors", and you dismiss out of hand two nationally recognized, well-regarded, use of force experts. There is certainly room for disagreement, even among experts, but the layman should be cautious about casually dismissing expert advice.

    Of course, that doesn’t mean we should throw out common sense and the ability to think for ourselves.

    Based on training I've received, and my personal experience in stressful situations, I'm a firm believer in simplification of self-defense systems. I think this holds true especially for the non-expert, and most of us (myself included) are in that category. What this means with respect to the armed civilian carrying both OC spray AND a handgun, I’m not sure. To date, I’ve been pretty confident that carrying OC spray in addition to a handgun is a very good idea. I’ll continue to do so. But, as OldHickory61 pointed out, it does complicate the decision matrix and can reduce reaction time, which I hadn’t seriously thought much about.

    So my hope is that some people who have really thought this through in depth can provide some relevant information.

    Please reread my statement regarding Masaad Ayoob...a rightly so statement is missing from my quote please do not do that

    Now that is the problem with forums. I am not attempting to write a book. So I try to make quick statements. I have a lot of respect for both, and alot of instructors do spread hogwash, as in any field. It has been witnessed numerous times in discussions here and that is just for starters. I have problems specifically with the fear mongering and a hypothosis, nothing else, I thought i made that clear and explained why.

    Where would we be without Masaad Ayoob? I have certainly learned alot from him and others.

    I am by no means a layman. I am sorry if i dont post a list of accomplishments and the weapons I own. I feel that that is my private business. I have not always been in the Army and am leaving soon to go back to what I was doing. I came back in after 9/11 because I knew I could help and I know i have done that, but its time to go back to what I was doing.

    If I can't trust a person to have the brains and training to decide between less than lethal and lethal use, and then only two choices oc or pistol. Why should I have any trust in that persons decision making capabilities or dedication to training. I understand some people do not have the time money or physical capabilities and they should decide accordingly.

    As far as the decision matrix goes, iminent danger to loss of life or great bodily harm, or not? That is what has to be decided on. If a person only has a pistol they still have the same decision to make whether or not oc is involved.
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    Member Array hengst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltyke View Post
    Without resorting to innuendo and sarcasm - in SC, I am permitted to shoot if I "believe I am in imminent danger of loss of life or serious bodily injury or actually be in such danger."

    I never said I was an "honest joe". I'll evaluate each situation and act accordingly to survive. I'll repeat - fighting "fair" on the street will get you killed.
    I apologize, that does read bad. I sometimes get zealous when using examples.

    State laws would play a role but I believe less than lethal has a place in our lifes.
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    Member Array ItsMyRight2's Avatar
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    Hickory.....it just personal choice. Who cares what people want to carry. And I would much rather spray someone than brandish my weapon but that just me I guess.

    Oh and why do you eat Big Macs? Is it because your not man enough for the whopper??
    When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.
    The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
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