Told to CC same ammo as local LE! - Page 2

Told to CC same ammo as local LE!

This is a discussion on Told to CC same ammo as local LE! within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I think factory ammo, same as LE, etc., falls into the same category as getting a trigger job that results in a "hair trigger." The ...

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Thread: Told to CC same ammo as local LE!

  1. #16
    Member Array danhammondsr's Avatar
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    I think factory ammo, same as LE, etc., falls into the same category as getting a trigger job that results in a "hair trigger."

    The more stock you keep things, the less ammunition you give to a prosecutor (or plaintiff's atty in a civil case), even if you were otherwise justified.

    Modifications and handloads give the overly ambitious barristers opportunities to make statements to a jury (or judge) like, "You loaded those up to be man-killers." Or, "You deliberately modified that gun so it would be more lethal."

    You also open yourself up to making an absurd statement like, "It went off by accident." Or, "I didn't mean to kill him." If it really did go off by accident, and you had a "hair trigger modification" you're sunk in civil cases, and you probably won't fair much better in the criminal trial either. It's a short path from SD to negligent homicide or manslaughter.


  2. #17
    JD
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  3. #18
    Senior Member Array Keltyke's Avatar
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    I'll carry what I feel is necessary to save my life. All the mods I've made to my carry piece are for comfort, ease of shooting, and/or accuracy. The accuracy issue will hold up well. I'm less likely to hit an innocent bystander. Police have different uses for their ammo than the average private citizen. What may work for them may not work for me. With all the good, quality ammo out there, I see no need to reload and carry personal defense rounds. I'm much more likely to reload range ammo that I use 2-3 boxes at a time.

    Mas has addressed this. Custom guns and ammo have been used as prosecution weapon, but seldom successfully. The DA will use ANY reason to make you out as a vigilante - just the fact that you carry a gun marks you from the outset. A competent defense lawyer will make the jury feel like they were the ones there and being attacked.

    All that being said, I wouldn't put a tactical logo like "Death and Destruction" on my carry weapon.

  4. #19
    Senior Member Array BRTCP88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunny View Post
    ...3) ONLY carry the same ammunition as your local law enforcement. For example, if YourTown Police Department carries ABC Hollowpoint rounds, no matter the caliber, then YOU should only carry ABC Hollowpoint rounds. That way, if you're ever on trial for defending yourself, when they ask you what brand/type ammo you carry and why...you can say that you carry ABC HPs because local LE does it, and you know that they carry every day to defend themselves. Then the DA can't say you carry Evil XYZ ammo, which would make you clearly bloodthirsty and out looking for an excuse to kill someone, see above.
    But couldn't they use that to say that you were a vigilante and a wannabe cop?
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  5. #20
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    3) ONLY carry the same ammunition as your local law enforcement. For example, if YourTown Police Department carries ABC Hollowpoint rounds, no matter the caliber, then YOU should only carry ABC Hollowpoint rounds. That way, if you're ever on trial for defending yourself, when they ask you what brand/type ammo you carry and why...you can say that you carry ABC HPs because local LE does it, and you know that they carry every day to defend themselves. Then the DA can't say you carry Evil XYZ ammo, which would make you clearly bloodthirsty and out looking for an excuse to kill someone, see above.

    Quote bunny


    The problem I see with #3 is the simple fact that if you travel ALL across your state, or multiple states for that matter, how in Gods name are you supposed to carry 6-10 or more brands of ammo, reload clips , etc,,,etc,,,,

    Seems a little nonsensical



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  6. #21
    Member Array walrusjax's Avatar
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    Well, I carry Speer Gold Dots which is the same as our local LE, not because of that, but it was one of the contributing factors.

    I think that in the time I've started carrying, the place where I've made the biggest modifications was not to my weapon, but to my brain. I find the Defensive Scenerios section of this forum to be a major contributor to that by getting me to "pre-think" situations that may arise. When I first got my permit, my opinion was that if I was going to be robbed, carjacked, etc. then I'd be pulling my gun to stop it. Now, after reading that forum and the many responses, my tactics have changed quite a bit. Somebody carjacks me, let them have it and call the cops. Somebody tries to carjack me while my kids are belted in the back seat, that is a totally different story with a way different response. So, I feel more comfortable now than I did in the beginning that if I pull my gun, it is for the right reason and therefore, should not result in the kind of lawsuits and criminal charges that the OP is concerned about (of course, that doesn't mean that it can't happen, just reduces the risk).

    Also, if attacked where lethal force is justified, I'm still looking to just "get away." I don't know that a hairline trigger or load formula or Gold Dot vs. Hydrashok are really going to change that too much.
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  7. #22
    Senior Member Array FlyboyLDB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunny View Post
    So this question came up in a class recently, I was wondering about y'all's thoughts on it. Especially any of you who may have been, or know anyone who has been, to court for something shooting related.

    Three pieces of advice were given:

    1) Never carry reloads, always carry factory ammo for SD. The thought behind this is that if you load your own, the DA can say that you didn't know what you were doing, that you were trying to make some superior killing-ammo, and that you were bloodthirsty and out to kill. So even if SHTF and you were FORCED TO SHOOT TO DEFEND YOUR LIFE, you're not seen as a victim defending yourself, you were probably out looking for trouble and therefore a criminal.

    2) Never carry modified guns for SD because of the whole "bloodthirsty" argument above.

    and this one, the one that's got me really pondering...

    3) ONLY carry the same ammunition as your local law enforcement. For example, if YourTown Police Department carries ABC Hollowpoint rounds, no matter the caliber, then YOU should only carry ABC Hollowpoint rounds. That way, if you're ever on trial for defending yourself, when they ask you what brand/type ammo you carry and why...you can say that you carry ABC HPs because local LE does it, and you know that they carry every day to defend themselves. Then the DA can't say you carry Evil XYZ ammo, which would make you clearly bloodthirsty and out looking for an excuse to kill someone, see above.


    So I'm curious. What do you think about these statements, and why?
    Assuming the shooting was a good shoot - you issues will not be with a DA. More a civil matter. And a civil trial lawyer will go after the fact that you carry the same ammo that law enforcement carries to kill people. The lawyers will look into every aspect regardless of "if local law enforcement caries the same ammo or equipment" - it can all be spun or twisted in front of a judge or jury.

    If the DA surmises a bad shoot - they will be looking at other issues and not just the ammo unless it just stands out - like belt fed.

    I would not fret over this. There are more than enough experts to refute any twisted tales.

  8. #23
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    Although there may have been a case or three where there was a fringe issue, I think it is mostly baloney.
    If the shooting is justified I doubt it would ever come up.

    If it did I believe it would be a good defense of using handloads to state that we have a responsibility to insure that we shoot accurately and not endanger bystanders.
    Accordingly, we can only afford handloads to do the practice necessary to shoot the best we can and not endanger others.

    If we use standard bullets that are in common use by LEs, at simiilar velocities as factory I fail to see how that makes us more dangerous or looking to kill someone.

    I use whatever functions best, and I have the most confidence in. If that is handloads then I use them and the lawyers can eat cake.
    My first responsibility is to shoot accurately, protect myself, and cause the least endangerment to innocent bystanders.

    Instructors often desire to show their great knowledge, and repeat what others, like Massad Ayoob, have said to make them appear as experts.

    If you are concerned then use what the instructor told you, but I am not.

    I sometimes wonder if some are so hung up on reloads, ammunition types, and modifications to their guns that maybe they should not carry.

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    Jerry

  9. #24
    Member Array danhammondsr's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=oneshot;1431608]3) ONLY carry the same ammunition as your local law enforcement. <snip>

    Quote bunny


    The problem I see with #3 is the simple fact that if you travel ALL across your state, or multiple states for that matter, how in Gods name are you supposed to carry 6-10 or more brands of ammo, reload clips , etc,,,etc,,,,

    Seems a little nonsensical" <snip>

    I've actually done some informal survey stuff (that included local guys and folks I know in several states) and found that the vast majority of LE seems to currently favor SemiAuto guns and jacketed hollow points. Most likely calibers are 9mm, .40 S&W, and the occasional .45ACP. Glock is the most common brand I found.

    Ammo brands are a bit varied, but all I have queried use factory stuff.

    That covers pretty much all the bases I need to check out to be confident.

    And all this falls to "customary and common practice." That idea helps dilute the argument that you deliberately set the conditions for the "man-killer" gun/ammo mix (which is generally the basis of the entire 'carry what LE carries' discussion).

    Cheers!

  10. #25
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    Reloads for target only, if u carry for SD then only Hydra-shok or simular personal defence or law enforcement rounds are acceptable. Anyone who has ball ammo in their chamber outside the range is just asking for truble.
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  11. #26
    Distinguished Member Array sniper58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rljohns View Post
    It's not bad advice. I went to ask a cop on officer.com and ask for CO LE to chime in. I received a few good responses and found HST, Golden Saber, and Gold Dot to be usual ammo. Then it just deteriorated into smart A$$ responses. A couple said it was none of my business. Another popular round is ranger XT.

    One problem is that DAs hate to lose, so if they take the case they will stop at nothing. In the above mentioned case with Mr. Fish the DA first refused the case and some friends of the victim convinced him to take it. Then the case went very strange, discussion of HP, 10mm being too "powerful" for the FBI, etc.

    I use HST, Gold Dot, and Golden Sabers which are used locally. I was using extreme shock fang face and realized it was all hype.
    Colorado (Denver, Aurora, Ft. Collins, Pueblo & Colorado Springs [at least] all) carry Federal HST. This was confirmed by ranked personnel in each of those areas and in my CCW class. In some cases, it might take the ammo issue off the table in court. Plus, HST simply works!
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  12. #27
    Member Array Steve O's Avatar
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    Never carry reloads, always carry factory ammo for SD. The thought behind this is that if you load your own, the DA can say that you didn't know what you were doing, that you were trying to make some superior killing-ammo, and that you were bloodthirsty and out to kill
    This reeks of two old ladies gossiping over the back yard fence and trying to out guess what's going to happen in a courtroom.

  13. #28
    Distinguished Member Array Rugergirl's Avatar
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    Fairly good advice as long as your carry gun will cycle the ammo.
    Me I use what I like best, if local LE uses it too, great, if not, well...
    Disclaimer: The posts made by this member are only the members opinion, not a reflection on anyone else, nor the group, and should not be cause for anyone to get their undergarments wedged in an uncomfortable position.

  14. #29
    Member Array Steve O's Avatar
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    Never carry modified guns for SD because of the whole "bloodthirsty" argument above.
    More stupid... Personally I wouldn't care to mod a weapon for ccw. If it wasn't good enough for carry from the factory then modding it makes no sense.

  15. #30
    Senior Member Array Rob P.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve O View Post
    This reeks of two old ladies gossiping over the back yard fence and trying to out guess what's going to happen in a courtroom.
    The real issue here isn't what the DA will think about the type of ammo you used in your shootout.

    The REAL issue is what the media will report about the ammo you used. "Cop killer bullets" is one phrase that may likely play over the airwaves and newsprint if the facts are appropriate. Thus, gossipy old ladies are your jurors and they will believe what the media tells them to believe.

    Given this farcial frenzy for fractured facts I'd say that you should modify your guns however they need to be modified to be so that they are safe and accurate in your hands, practice with whatever loads you feel you need to become proficient with, and shoot whatever ammo you wholeheartedly believe will save your life in an emergency. Then get a good lawyer.

    Given that most people go through life without an armed conflict, the odds that you will need to explain your ammo choices are very low. And modified firearms that are SAFER to shoot are safer than generic firearms which are difficult to shoot.

    And, who can say that a spring replacement/ change due to high round counts in a semi isn't a "modification" if you use Wolfe springs instead of factory ones to repair your old iron.

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