Told to CC same ammo as local LE!

This is a discussion on Told to CC same ammo as local LE! within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Makes sense to me. I use whatever hollowpoints I can get from Walmart. Box has statement - don't remember exactly but something about "Personal Protection ...

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Thread: Told to CC same ammo as local LE!

  1. #31
    Distinguished Member Array ArmyCop's Avatar
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    Makes sense to me.

    I use whatever hollowpoints I can get from Walmart. Box has statement - don't remember exactly but something about "Personal Protection or Personal Defense Ammo" printed on it.
    For God, Family and Country!

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  3. #32
    Senior Member Array rljohns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sniper58 View Post
    Colorado (Denver, Aurora, Ft. Collins, Pueblo & Colorado Springs [at least] all) carry Federal HST. This was confirmed by ranked personnel in each of those areas and in my CCW class. In some cases, it might take the ammo issue off the table in court. Plus, HST simply works!
    Lakewood PD uses Ranger XT, that's the old "Black Talons". A SWAT officer that shoots with me said they did their own balistics and settled on Ranger. I wouldn't think there is very much difference in HST, Rangers, and GD. Golden Sabers seem to be just another JHP close to those also. All I know is that I will never put down good money for trick rounds like Fang Face again. I like HST because they seem to take loading and unloading well. I need to be able to change back and forth for range use.

    The ask a cop guys that responded
    Monument PD Golden Saber
    Unknown CO City Ranger

  4. #33
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    IMO the only one that has any validity to it is #2 and then there are qualifiers for that. If the modification is to the grips/sights or something cosmetic then it isn't really a valid argument. Something like modifications to make the trigger extremely light might have some validity to it.

  5. #34
    Member Array Steve O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob P. View Post
    The real issue here isn't what the DA will think about the type of ammo you used in your shootout.

    The REAL issue is what the media will report about the ammo you used. "Cop killer bullets" is one phrase that may likely play over the airwaves and newsprint if the facts are appropriate. Thus, gossipy old ladies are your jurors and they will believe what the media tells them to believe.

    Given this farcial frenzy for fractured facts I'd say that you should modify your guns however they need to be modified to be so that they are safe and accurate in your hands, practice with whatever loads you feel you need to become proficient with, and shoot whatever ammo you wholeheartedly believe will save your life in an emergency. Then get a good lawyer.

    Given that most people go through life without an armed conflict, the odds that you will need to explain your ammo choices are very low. And modified firearms that are SAFER to shoot are safer than generic firearms which are difficult to shoot.

    And, who can say that a spring replacement/ change due to high round counts in a semi isn't a "modification" if you use Wolfe springs instead of factory ones to repair your old iron.
    Thus, gossipy old ladies are your jurors and they will believe what the media tells them to believe.
    If that's what you believe then I feel so sorry for you. Jurors are given instructions for a reason, their only suppose to deal with the facts brought out during the trail. They are also quizzed about any media reports they have read concerning the case and whether or not they have already formed an opinion on the case before they can be considered for jury duty.

    I'd say that you should modify your guns however they need to be modified
    That's your call but I'm sure those people your calling old ladies (jurors) may have a different opinion.

  6. #35
    Distinguished Member Array Bunny's Avatar
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    Thanks all for the input. These were actually topics discussed during Instructor Certification and then a while later when I went to a tac pistol class. I was going over my notes from it all last week and it made me go "hmmmm." And so far, you guys have all given me some really worthwhile advice and pointers whenever I post a question here at DC. I appreciate it! :)

    I'm not sure I agree with 1,2, or 3. I can see where the person explaining it to me would see some validity behind the reasoning, I guess. But OTOH like you have said...it sounds a little hooey to me, too.
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  7. #36
    Distinguished Member Array Bunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rljohns View Post
    Lakewood PD uses Ranger XT, that's the old "Black Talons". A SWAT officer that shoots with me said they did their own balistics and settled on Ranger. I wouldn't think there is very much difference in HST, Rangers, and GD. Golden Sabers seem to be just another JHP close to those also. All I know is that I will never put down good money for trick rounds like Fang Face again. I like HST because they seem to take loading and unloading well. I need to be able to change back and forth for range use.

    The ask a cop guys that responded
    Monument PD Golden Saber
    Unknown CO City Ranger
    Bear with me, I'm still a relative noob. What's Fang Face?
    Don't frisk me, I am the weapon.


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    www.vanguardnc.com

  8. #37
    Member Array tmizzi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunny View Post
    Bear with me, I'm still a relative noob. What's Fang Face?
    See link:
    Not Specified - The World's Most Advanced Ammunition
    To all you current and former military ... thank you for your service! Let no one forget that the sacrifices you have made allow us the freedoms we enjoy.

  9. #38
    Member Array uncballzer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmizzi View Post
    I looked at those; and read one of the other comments above. How much are those things, cause right now, I'm not seeing a price on that site. Is it like the saying, if you don't see a price on the menu, it's cause it's too expensive to even list (or something similar)?
    BLONDIE: You may run the risks, my friend, but I do the cutting. If we cut down my percentage... cigar? Liable to interfere with my aim.

  10. #39
    Senior Member Array Slim_45's Avatar
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    I fully agree with # 1 & 2
    although #3 is a good idea the ammo MUST function well in your pistol otherwise you may not end up in court anyway
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  11. #40
    Senior Member Array Divebum47's Avatar
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    I hate to over think things. My own philosophy is to carry the fire arm and ammunition that gives me the best chance of coming out the survivor should I need to use them. I'll save my loved ones' and my life first then worry about the legal implications. If everything I heard was true about carrying a firearm for self defense, I'd probably be carrying a back pack loaded with a a law library, an empty wallet and directions to the nearest morgue.

    Personally, I'm going to carry a gun which I've shot a lot, ammunition which I've shot a lot and carry my weapon in a holster from which I've drawn a lot.

    I won't carry reloads for SD because I don't reload my own ammo, and I won't trust myself to someone else's "home brew."

    I'll have the necessary mods made to my SD guns which will make them more reliable and mentally comfortable for me to carry.

    I'll make my own choices in ammunition because the locals change ammo, and in some cases have access to stuff I don't.

    I like the way Sixto boils it down. I'm going to make SD choices that ensure that when I appear in court to defend my actions, it's upright and on two feet.
    "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

  12. #41
    Senior Member Array rljohns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uncballzer View Post
    I looked at those; and read one of the other comments above. How much are those things, cause right now, I'm not seeing a price on that site. Is it like the saying, if you don't see a price on the menu, it's ca use it's too expensive to even list (or something similar)?
    I want to say I PAID $48 for a box of 20. I won't be suckered again. They are just a gimmick.

  13. #42
    Senior Member Array Rob P.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve O View Post
    If that's what you believe then I feel so sorry for you. Jurors are given instructions for a reason, their only suppose to deal with the facts brought out during the trail. They are also quizzed about any media reports they have read concerning the case and whether or not they have already formed an opinion on the case before they can be considered for jury duty.
    Trust me, I'm a lawyer and I see jurors all the time do what they aren't supposed to do. Trial by media is a common occurrence and the only thing left for the jury to do is vote guilty because actually THINKING is beyond them.

    That's your call but I'm sure those people your calling old ladies (jurors) may have a different opinion.
    Everyone has an opinion. That doesn't make it valid or true.

    I carry a S&W 9mm which has "reduced power" trigger, main, and firing pin springs from Wolfe in it. It also has Novak sights and a +P rated recoil spring. I also load it with Corbon DPX ammo. With these mods and ammo I can hit what I am at without fear of flinching, heeling, or fingering 95% of the time within 3 inches of POI at distance up to 25 yds. I have a CCW and I train and practice with my EDC.

    Does this make my Smith modified to the point that it becomes an issue that I'm "planning to shoot someone/anyone?" No. Is the plaintiff's lawyer going to try to say this? Certainly. Is the jury going to think about any of this stuff? NEVER! What the jury is going to do is vote the way the most believable expert testifies and what the media has shown on TV. Believe it.

    Juries don't care about jury instructions. The judge reads the instructions to the jury before they go deliberate and the jury never looks at them again. |Think about this, the judge reads something around 30 pages of arcane lawyer talk and you expect a jury to remember it all? Or do ANY thinking?

    I was told of a case where the jury was deliberating about a plaintiff who claimed to be injured because they walked in the desert NEAR a state highway and twisted their ankle. They were claiming $1M in personal injury damages. One person on the jury was going to award them these damages "because it's CalTrans and they have lots of money. It's not like it's State money or Tax money." THAT is the kind of moron you get on a jury and who is going to be deciding YOUR fate in the event you are unlucky enough to be involved in an armed conflict moment. In such a situation whether your gun was "modified" or if you carry "cop killer bullets" is irrelevant.

  14. #43
    Member Array Steve O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob P. View Post
    Trust me, I'm a lawyer and I see jurors all the time do what they aren't supposed to do. Trial by media is a common occurrence and the only thing left for the jury to do is vote guilty because actually THINKING is beyond them.



    Everyone has an opinion. That doesn't make it valid or true.

    I carry a S&W 9mm which has "reduced power" trigger, main, and firing pin springs from Wolfe in it. It also has Novak sights and a +P rated recoil spring. I also load it with Corbon DPX ammo. With these mods and ammo I can hit what I am at without fear of flinching, heeling, or fingering 95% of the time within 3 inches of POI at distance up to 25 yds. I have a CCW and I train and practice with my EDC.

    Does this make my Smith modified to the point that it becomes an issue that I'm "planning to shoot someone/anyone?" No. Is the plaintiff's lawyer going to try to say this? Certainly. Is the jury going to think about any of this stuff? NEVER! What the jury is going to do is vote the way the most believable expert testifies and what the media has shown on TV. Believe it.

    Juries don't care about jury instructions. The judge reads the instructions to the jury before they go deliberate and the jury never looks at them again. |Think about this, the judge reads something around 30 pages of arcane lawyer talk and you expect a jury to remember it all? Or do ANY thinking?

    I was told of a case where the jury was deliberating about a plaintiff who claimed to be injured because they walked in the desert NEAR a state highway and twisted their ankle. They were claiming $1M in personal injury damages. One person on the jury was going to award them these damages "because it's CalTrans and they have lots of money. It's not like it's State money or Tax money." THAT is the kind of moron you get on a jury and who is going to be deciding YOUR fate in the event you are unlucky enough to be involved in an armed conflict moment. In such a situation whether your gun was "modified" or if you carry "cop killer bullets" is irrelevant.
    Very nice to hear someone speak from experience rather than talking about old wife's tales or just something they heard on the internet that certainly must be true. I do appreciate your comments.

  15. #44
    Senior Member Array Divebum47's Avatar
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    I was told of a case where the jury was deliberating about a plaintiff who claimed to be injured because they walked in the desert NEAR a state highway and twisted their ankle. They were claiming $1M in personal injury damages. One person on the jury was going to award them these damages "because it's CalTrans and they have lots of money. It's not like it's State money or Tax money." THAT is the kind of moron you get on a jury and who is going to be deciding YOUR fate in the event you are unlucky enough to be involved in an armed conflict moment. In such a situation whether your gun was "modified" or if you carry "cop killer bullets" is irrelevant.
    "A jury of your peers" is often an oxymoron, and is often comprised of several morons.
    "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

  16. #45
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    I can only hope that if I'm in a SD shooting, It's me on trial for putting someone in a pine box and not the other way around.
    Don't believe what you hear and only half of what you see!
    -Tony Soprano

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