January 1st, 2010 10:48 AM
For the most part, I consider it crossing bridges that haven't even been yet built.
I carry any quality factory ammo that works reliably in my firearm, and am quite content.
Everything else is just a lot of "what iffing," a never ending circle.
January 1st, 2010 04:15 PM
Well I'll guess I'll give my input on this:
While I don't personally carry reloads (and don't really plan to), I could see where it could/would be brought up in court. However I wouldn't really worry to much about it, especially if you load to "factory specs" and have other ammo you loaded available for testing and didn't/don't load to some crazy level and can prove it...I will also go on record as saying that I'd like to get into reloading, but mainly for range use, though not sure if I ever will.
Originally Posted by Bunny
Again, I don't see a problem with modifying a carry gun, as long as it isn't something that interferes with the safe operation of the gun.
Originally Posted by Bunny
(ie: adding a "hair trigger")
Meh....as already mentioned in any given area different dept's may/will likely be using different types (brands) of ammo. So unless the shooting is actually in my home town carrying brand ABC doesn't matter if the local leo's carry/use brand DEF, I'd say (issue of reloads aside) if you're using any factory brand ammo you're fine.
Originally Posted by Bunny
Remember a prosecuting attorney is going to say/do what ever they can to get a conviction (or make you fearful enough to work a deal), it won't matter what ammo you use, what you've done to the gun or what color underware you have on that day.
The job of your defense attorney is to convince the jury that he's wrong and you acted within the letter of law defending yourself (or at least give the jury enough reasonable doubt to not convict).
When Guns Are Outlawed, Only Outlaws will have guns
Just remember, When seconds count help is mere minutes away
Also remember, When you go to trial by jury you are putting yourself into the hands of 12 people who weren't smart enough to get out of jury duty.
January 6th, 2010 04:54 PM
I kind of disagree with the first and third point... Any firearm is a LETHAL WEAPON. How do you get a MORE lethal weapon? I don't get it.
It's like saying you used a .45ACP/.357 magnum/etc etc instead of using a .22 or a .380 so it's MORE LETHAL.
I hope that makes sense...
and as for modifying the gun, I would think it wouldn't matter unless you ACCIDENTALLY shoot someone. If you shoot someone in self defense, then it shouldn't matter if you use a modified gun or not.
January 6th, 2010 06:08 PM
One I agree with totally. Reloads should be used for training, hunting, or when the SHTF and there is no more country.
Originally Posted by dlclarkii
It's far better to use factory loads. It's more consistent and a *insert appropriate adjective here* DA will have a harder time dealing with it.
For number two I also agree with it to the extent you should modify the gun to extremes. Putting a hair trigger on the gun might not be a good idea. Putting night sights on it? Good idea.
Not going to work. Which LEO standard do you use? I've got maybe 20 different departments around me, including the one I'm working for.
For 3. If you don't use the same ammo as LEOs then the DA will accuse of you using an inhumane ammo.
It's all part of covering your a$$ (CYA) You want a solid case in your defense for shooting someone in self defense.
For ammo one should use JHP.
January 6th, 2010 06:20 PM
I agree with point 1 and 2, 3rd point is agreeable as you can alwas use the good enuf for LE good enuf for my/family SD. Ball ammo is not designed for SD, and if your going to pay the extra $ for HP you may as well get the best. However check you local laws, some places restrict the sale of LE grade ammo, (i.e. my preferd amo Federal HST) to the public
Timid people sleep peacefully at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
January 6th, 2010 09:33 PM
1)I reccomend not only using factory ammo, but also keeping the box they came in for proving they were factory.
3)Law enforcement knows good ammo, so anything they use will work but I disagree with only using thier ammo. I carry Speer gold dots, know a lot of enforcement agencies carry it too but I could care less what the County Sheriff in this area uses.
January 6th, 2010 09:50 PM
I think a lot of the issue surrounding #3 is related to the shift to hollowpoints many years ago from FMJ. Unscrupulous people, including the media were tainting your jury pools. Who here is old enough to remember phases like "DUM DUM" bullets, DESIGNED TO KILL, and BANNED BY THE GENEVA CONVENTION!
Once the real story of preventing over penetration and stopping versus killing became more common it's less of an issue. Cops testifying for the prosecution got tired of explaining to juries why they carried bullets DESIGNED TO KILL and influenced prosecutors to knock it off.
That said Harold Fish got crucified for the powerful 10MM. Since the FBI dropped it the caliber has a certain reputation. Unscrupulous prosecutors are out there. I'll heed this advice and carry Remington Gold Dots. If necessary I'll supena (sp?) the local FBI SAC and a Remington Salesman rather than hope I get a "fair minded" prosecutor.
Last edited by msb45; January 6th, 2010 at 09:50 PM.
January 6th, 2010 09:58 PM
IMO, it has to do with not giving up elements you don't have to, things that are easily controllable simply by making another selection. These comments are based on what I have heard from a number of well-known and -respected people in the training business, some of whom have had much court experience in helping to counter such questions.
Originally Posted by Bunny
1. Reloads open yourself up to (a) the claim that you feel factory rounds aren't deadly enough, so that you'll make them more deadly; and (b) the difficulty in proving how deadly your ammo is, since your records and your reloading skill is what's on the line, to prove it.
2) Significant modifications open up the same basic "bloodthirsty" type issue you mention.
3) Carrying the same or similar ammo as local law enforcement can make it easier to support your claim of safety, reliability, going by your training, etc. A known quantity is easier to deal with, than an unknown.
This isn't to say such claims are valid. But, countering such claims might get a bit sticky. When it's so simple to avoid, it seems silly not to. At least, so long as reliable factory options exist.
For myself, I'm straddling the line a bit. My primary ammo of choice has been the DoubleTap JHP 9mm cartridge. DoubleTap isn't exactly a tier-1 maker of ammo. It's far hotter than most other mfrs, though it has exactly the same Speer Gold Dot bullet as many law enforcement departments use in their ammo. DoubleTap may not be well-known as most mfrs, but it makes highly reliable rounds using quality equipment and components. In the end, for me, it's a safety/reliability question. This specific round was, by a long margin, the most reliable cartridge for my particular gun. Nothing would make me select an unreliable cartridge, but it was nice that a Speer GD option existed that was utterly reliable.
In the end, it's playing the percentages. Many well-known folks in the industry suggest such things can be hard to counter, potentially. If I'm easily able to simply avoid the questions in the first place, it seems silly not to do so.
Well, it's a fact that anything smaller than a .357, .40, .45 or thereabouts doesn't really raise eyebrows. But if someone's going around with a .454, .500 S&W or other "hand cannon," you can bet certain questions are far easier to raise in court regarding why such "overkill" was deemed necessary. Almost anything you say about such a large, atypical choice for a defensive firearm puts you on record as believing that a typical calibration isn't powerful enough, deadly enough, that you wanted to be sure with a stronger caliber. That's the "more dead" type claim, though obviously dead is dead. That's not the point.
Originally Posted by BlueNinjaGo
I don't agree with the claim either. But, the point is such claims about overkill, effectiveness, why standard/normal options weren't "good" enough all become easier for a prosecutor to make. In a game of "inches" where perception and biases play so heavily in whether someone's left dangling at the end of a guilty verdict, it just seems good practice to not tempt such questions unless absolutely necessary.
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
January 6th, 2010 10:48 PM
I think you're missing the point entirely on handloads. The issue is that you can't prove what the load was. In Ayoob's examples, it was the he said she said cases where things went wrong and they were unable to use residue evidence because the shooters used handloads. In a case where a cop used factory ammo, they used such evidence to get him acquitted twice.
Originally Posted by JerryM
When I bought my first box of SD ammo, I asked the guy at the shop and he pushed over a box of RA9-T (ranger). That will do just fine.
January 7th, 2010 12:26 AM
Originally Posted by SIXTO
I've been reading Civilian Gun Blog (now the Armed Citizen) for about seven years and I can't remember ever hearing of a prosecutor making an issue out of any of those issues, save the 10mm controversy of the Fish trial. I simply don't buy it, but maybe I would if I lived in a place where the DA is likely to make an example of an armed citizen that fights back. Then again, I'd try my best not to live in such a place (again).
I carry 180 HST 40SW in auto loaders. In revolver (gasp; what PD still has revolvers) its Speer GD or Golden Saber 357 JHP of the 125 gr variety. But if I rolled my own, best believe that that's what I'd carry. I have no idea what APD issues but I'm sure it changes depending on supply/demand and what's available. Stock guns in excellent condition are my preference, but only because I believe them to be the most dependable/reliable.
2nd Amendment: because personal violence never
makes an appointment.
Evil resides in the heart of the individual, not in inanimate objects.
Member of GeorgiaCarry.Org
January 7th, 2010 12:55 AM
Not correct. Unless I have fired all my ammo I have enough left to prove how it is loaded. If the bullet was recovered, and the fired cases it would be very easy to prove what the load was. Isn't that the way one would prove he used the same ammo as LE? In fact I would have several boxes of the ammo I would carry that would be unfired at home.
Originally Posted by Cycler
Without rereading the post wasn't the problem regarding residue related to a light load? I would submit that my handloads would be as reproducible as factory ammo.
January 7th, 2010 02:49 AM
In my nightmares of having to go to court for a shooting, I hire Mas Ayoob for his expert testimony.
In these dreams I am also rich. (and beautiful...and younger.)
January 7th, 2010 02:58 AM
1) I'd use reloads only for plinking and practice. For carry, (I do) use factory ammo expressly designed for self-defense and that at least some police depts use.
2) I think you do have to be very careful if you have a DA trigger modified to be lighter. It's more about making it clear what works best to defend yourself, not making killing easier.
3) See 1. I use those (Federal Hydroshock JHPs) because those are what is recommended by the experts and police depts. And they are designed specifically to stop a bg and only the bg and not endanger others around them. I would make sure to point out in court that I thoroughly considered this...that safety was paramount and the ammo chosen was so chosen to STOP a bg as efficiently and safely as possible.
January 7th, 2010 05:27 AM
If I'm facing a DA in court after being involved in a self-defense shooting, then I've being charged by the state and something more fundamental about the shooting is in question - more fundamental than my choice of ammo or customizations to my pistol - like whether deadly force was warranted. Certainly, it doesn't hurt to limit potential criticism that might aggravate things, but frankly it's kind of pointless because anything can be used against you one way or another, if someone wants to. You can't anticipate or guard against all possibilities.
Originally Posted by Bunny
I don't know if any of the three points will help, but I don't think they will hurt. I disagree with #3. If your local agency uses Winchester Golden Sabers, and your 1911 chokes on Golden Sabers, then you should use a different JHP. You shouldn't use a round that causes failures to fire, failures to eject, stovepipes, etc., just because that is what your local agency uses.
The defense lawyer who taught the legal module of my CHP course told us to Keep It Simple for Self-defense (his version of KISS):
1. Weapon - Carry what you shoot well without having to make modifications other than sights. Avoid trigger jobs that take your trigger pull below 3 lbs, to avoid hair-trigger questions. Choose a handgun of reasonable quality that doesn't have a checkered history of malfunctions, notable inaccuracy, or failures. Look at what your local law enforcement agencies are using because they are likely to be made by manufacturers who make handguns of decent quality. Don't worry about cosmetic customizations. Customize your competition handguns, but don't use them for SD unless you have no choice.
2. Ammo - Load premium ammo that your handgun shoots reliably and that does not exceed what your handgun is designed to handle. Most manufacturers recommend using premium ammo. Avoid using handloads for SD because doing so is almost always against manufacturer recommendations, may void your warranty, and opens your handloading to unnecessary scrutiny if you are sued. Consider the bullet designs and ammo manufacturers used by your local law enforcement agencies. If it is appropriate for your local law enforcement to use for self-defense, then it is appropriate for you for self-defense (unless prohibited by law).
These are more geared toward the personal liability side of things, in the event you are sued for damages after a shooting. Not so much for if the DA is considering whether or not to charge you with excessive force, manslaughter, or murder. At least, that is what I was told, IANAL.
January 7th, 2010 09:27 AM
Factory vs Handloads. JUST A QUESTION................
What would a DA say in the case of this scenario ?
BG begins bashing in the front door. You have a 9mm pistol and a 12gauge loaded with OOBuck at hand. You choose the 12Gauge and dispatch the bad guy with a single shot to the head at 20 feet as he is charging you with an axe in his hand.
The shottie was loaded with FACTORY ammo while the pistol was stoked with FMJ handloads that you used for plinking and barely had the power to cycle the action.
The police arrive and haul you away while the coroner examines the headless corpse sprawled out on the floor next to his axe.
Will the DA question your choice ?
Was the ammunition used inhumane ?
I do carry factory ammo in my handguns but do make reloads that are made with standard recipes from well established handbooks. The handbooks never mention anything about how devastating or deadly they are, like some factory SD ammo. They just give loads that are within the recommended parameters for the caliber and bullet chosen.
Last edited by boscobeans; January 7th, 2010 at 09:39 AM.
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