Told to CC same ammo as local LE! - Page 5

Told to CC same ammo as local LE!

This is a discussion on Told to CC same ammo as local LE! within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; He would immediately latch onto your your choice of ammo and hammer you on it, no matter if you acted within the bounds of use ...

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  1. #61
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    He would immediately latch onto your your choice of ammo and hammer you on it, no matter if you acted within the bounds of use of force laws for your area.

    Justified or not, he will charge you, attempt to portray the deceased as a victim and try to ruin your life...

    Is that what you want to hear?

    It sounds like it, because people focus so much on the issue, that must be what they want to hear.

    Your ammo choice is a 3rd or 4th tier consern in the aftermath.

    Your actions before the incident, during and after it, along with statements you make (NONE if you have brain #1 in your mellon) and your behavior when in custody are much more critical than Ball v. Ranger Talon.

    But...It's more fun to discuss the potential outcomes on a case if a guy uses Xtreme Terminal Performance (hornady XTP) vs the same facts if a guy used Glaser "Safety Slugs" by corbon.

    Not useful...but hey, it's mental masturbation which has ZERO to do with reality.

    People have taken a piece of information, some good advice, about how to avoid a potential pitfall (the ever dangerous W/T/F factor) and have expounded upon it to death.

    From Ignorance.

    People. This is not complex stuff.

    You carry factory ammo to avoid the W T F factor.

    What is that? That anything outside the ordinary which will make anyone in law enforcement or the courts look at something and say "What the ...?!"

    Are handloads "dealwithable" by a lawyer? Yeah...but they take time and effort to discuss with the prosecutor when we should be discussing your injuries and how you are a good, upstanding person who was attacked.

    Want to confuse the issue?

    Handload. Mix ammo in your mags. Add extranious BS to your weapons. Modify it beyond the weapon beyond what is conventionally held as responsible by experts (read as "Not what you think is reasonable, what people who are considered references think is reasonable".)

    Do those things and it won't matter what you did. You will screw the issues so much that YOU & Your gun will be the focus instead of the actions you took and how they were justified.

    But that's just my opinion.

    IAAL


  2. #62
    Senior Member Array boscobeans's Avatar
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    "He would immediately latch onto your your choice of ammo and hammer you on it, no matter if you acted within the bounds of use of force laws for your area.

    Justified or not, he will charge you, attempt to portray the deceased as a victim and try to ruin your life...
    Is that what you want to hear?"
    Yes. Because that is how almost any SD shoot will go down around here.

    "Your ammo choice is a 3rd or 4th tier concern in the aftermath.

    Your actions before the incident, during and after it, along with statements you make (NONE if you have brain #1 in your mellon) and your behavior when in custody are much more critical than Ball v. Ranger Talon."
    No argument there.
    "People. This is not complex stuff.

    You carry factory ammo to avoid the W T F factor."
    I do and will continue to do so.

    "Want to confuse the issue?

    Handload. Mix ammo in your mags. Add extranious BS to your weapons. Modify it beyond the weapon beyond what is conventionally held as responsible by experts (read as "Not what you think is reasonable, what people who are considered references think is reasonable".)

    Do those things and it won't matter what you did. You will screw the issues so much that YOU & Your gun will be the focus instead of the actions you took and how they were justified."
    Exactly... +1

    As I stated in my post I carry only factory ammo and hope I never have to use it. My post was to show how stupid (although problematical) the issue is.

    bosco
    Last edited by JD; January 7th, 2010 at 01:29 PM. Reason: Added quote tags.

  3. #63
    Member Array Arisin Wind's Avatar
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    I wonder how many self defense shootings there's been where the defender used a modified gun and/or handloads and/or a caliber other than the local law enforcement's and there were no questions about what he used?
    Be not far from me, for trouble is near; For there is none to help. psalm22:11

  4. #64
    Member Array ecrist's Avatar
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    My humble opinion is to carry what I want. I happen to use Federal Hydrashock (I like buying local). This also happens to be what local SO uses, but it's only coincidence.

    Any way you slice it, if you shot someone in self defense, there will be a court case of some sort likely. Unless you're using a bazooka, I doubt anyone really cares what you're loading.
    It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. - David Hume

  5. #65
    Member Array Arisin Wind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunny View Post
    3) ONLY carry the same ammunition as your local law enforcement.
    I was going to do this. I live in a different county from where I work. I drive about 35 miles from where I work, going through two towns. I checked with the law enforcement people in the two counties and towns and found they carried different ammo and weapons. The small town police carried 357 Magnum wheel guns, the big city police had 9mm Glocks, the one county had 40 cals and the other 45's.

    I bought duplicates of what the LE's have and carry all four weapons with the notion of selecting the proper weapon for my SD incident dependent upon which jurisdiction I'm in.

    Of course the DA might use the fact I was heavily armed against me....
    Be not far from me, for trouble is near; For there is none to help. psalm22:11

  6. #66
    Member Array ecrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arisin Wind View Post
    I was going to do this. I live in a different county from where I work. I drive about 35 miles from where I work, going through two towns. I checked with the law enforcement people in the two counties and towns and found they carried different ammo and weapons. The small town police carried 357 Magnum wheel guns, the big city police had 9mm Glocks, the one county had 40 cals and the other 45's.

    I bought duplicates of what the LE's have and carry all four weapons with the notion of selecting the proper weapon for my SD incident dependent upon which jurisdiction I'm in.

    Of course the DA might use the fact I was heavily armed against me....
    It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. - David Hume

  7. #67
    Member Array Cycler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryM View Post
    Not correct. Unless I have fired all my ammo I have enough left to prove how it is loaded.
    That would be great except you're a murderer and can't be trusted. That's the issue I'm trying to convey - in a trial situation, you're not considered a trusted source but the factory is.

  8. #68
    Distinguished Member Array JerryM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycler View Post
    That would be great except you're a murderer and can't be trusted. That's the issue I'm trying to convey - in a trial situation, you're not considered a trusted source but the factory is.
    I don't agree that what I have could not be used in the trial. I do not know what the future holds, but as of now there is a very level headed DA here who is basicaly pro gun.

    I also have friends here who are truly expert in such things and could blow apart the arguments that have worried some.

    Anyway, it is not a concern to me.
    Have a good day. Not sure what more I can add.

    Regards,
    Jerry

  9. #69
    Ex Member Array Cold Warrior's Avatar
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    I bought my very first .40 caliber Smith & Wesson Sigma pistol because this is the common round that the police department carries in my town; the same for 9mm because that is the standard military pistol bullet. Your guns can't go blamo if you don't have the ammo. No matter the chatter or how erotic, for normal civilian uses, there is no rational real reason to get all exotic on loads, etc. If you are far enough away to aim your gun, you are far enough away to run, as you are supposed to do. Will I run if I have a gun? I don't know. You don't need no more than you can legally buy at a normal sports or gun store.

  10. #70
    Member Array CommonMan101's Avatar
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    I just assumed the police had better ammo than I could get and gave little thought to it. It's not like there is a law saying we have to or even anything anywhere at all requesting something like it.

    Maybe because I also hunt with my gun I see it a bit different. For SD I use 135gr 10mm HP DoubleTap to mimmick a .357mag 125gr HP in balistics. I figured if it was good enough for the police for decades it's good enough for me. I see it as toning it down to acceptable parameters. (see prev. comments mentioning .454 casauls)

    funny thing is...
    I consider this cartridge a fierce SD - yet an unworthy hunting round. The converse is true too... The hunting loads are inferior to the HPs for SD. They are meant to penetrate deeply which would not be an upgrade in stopping power over any SD HP load.

    So, in my book, I find all the factory load HP variants way more destructive for SD than my hunting loads. (200gr SWC hardcast) Like, the difference being either a clean hole in a bicep (HuntLoad) or the back half of the bicep missing (HP) - if that's what you hit.

    So don't tell the jury... ok? It'll only confuse things more... We ARE talking about my prior mindset being scrutinized by a potential jury? no? Am I not using the most deadly for both situations? Am I not supposed to? Why am I carrying this thing again?

    I follow #1 more for the reason of consistancy and reliability. I guess if it helps with pre-guessing if a jury cares about it then that's ok too. I reload for target and hunting but it will be years before I even THINK I'll be as certain of it as factory.

    #2 As far as modifying goes.. If I see something I can do to make it function more reliably or accurately I will do it. Additionally, I am considering some form of hog artwork at the moment but I believe engraving something like "Smile - Wait for the flash" on the end of your barrel or having The Punisher icon put on the slide will work against you.

    I'm not going to worry my pretty little head about #3 unless my local PD is using AP ammo Then I'm interested in matching them exactly.

  11. #71
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Common man, what you're saying may be common sense, but that has little to do with reality in the court room. All the things people have discussed are points that a prosecuting attorney can and will use against you to make it look like you were a 'stone cold killer just waiting to use your gun.'

    If you havent already, I suggest doing some reading on the legal side and real life cases involving self-defense shootings. Mas Ayoob describes many in most of his books and they're good reading.

    I mean really, why not put that pretty little head to some good use?
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  12. #72
    Member Array SAMI's Avatar
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    *Note - I didn't read the whole thread... Maybe 30 posts..

    Stumbled accross this forum today while on a google search for something else, and ironically I had just asked my CCP Instructor (active LEO 10+ years) about ammo last night.

    Here is our email conversation:

    Me:
    "... I have not seen any regulations pertaining to ammunition that I can use. Am I ok to load my weapon with hydra-shok rounds? Will/can that work against me in any way after the dust settles if it ever hit the fan?"
    LEO:
    There are no restrictions in Utah on the exact tpye of ammunition you may carry in your handgun or use in self defense. I would recommend exactly what you purchased, you want something to do the maximum amount of damage with the least amount of over penetration.
    Take that for what it's worth.

    -Jason

  13. #73
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Common man, what you're saying may be common sense, but that has little to do with reality in the court room.
    Reality in the courtroom is a lot less exciting than you believe.

    As to anyone speculating how a prosecutor will act...please.

    I know some who would probably subpoena your reloading records because they liked what the round did and want to replicate it...and others who believe you had no business carrying the gun in the first place.

  14. #74
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    Reality in the courtroom is a lot less exciting than you believe.

    As to anyone speculating how a prosecutor will act...please.

    I know some who would probably subpoena your reloading records because they liked what the round did and want to replicate it...and others who believe you had no business carrying the gun in the first place.
    Speculating how a prosecutor will act is the same as speculating how a bg will act...it enables you to prepare for different contingencies.

    I'm certainly no expert, I got my information from books written by the experts, who describe multiple courtroom cases and strategies.

    And courtroom minutiae...while not exciting...would certainly be capable of influencing a jury.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  15. #75
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Prepare for contingencies HOW?

    For that matter, do you prepare for how different judges are going to react?

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