Told to CC same ammo as local LE! - Page 6

Told to CC same ammo as local LE!

This is a discussion on Told to CC same ammo as local LE! within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This is one of the reasons I carry a 1911 .45ACP and use FMJ.......Standard round and i have full confidence in it. Don't need JHP ...

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Thread: Told to CC same ammo as local LE!

  1. #76
    VIP Member Array xXxplosive's Avatar
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    This is one of the reasons I carry a 1911 .45ACP and use FMJ.......Standard round and i have full confidence in it. Don't need JHP ammo to stop the threat.
    This will do the job.............................


  2. #77
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    Prepare for contingencies HOW?

    For that matter, do you prepare for how different judges are going to react?
    So, you havent read the original post or the thread?

    And it's more about how juries react, not judges.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  3. #78
    Member Array RugerSP101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunny View Post
    1) Never carry reloads, always carry factory ammo for SD.
    The thought behind this is that if you load your own, the DA can say that you didn't know what you were doing, that you were trying to make some superior killing-ammo, and that you were bloodthirsty and out to kill. So even if SHTF and you were FORCED TO SHOOT TO DEFEND YOUR LIFE, you're not seen as a victim defending yourself, you were probably out looking for trouble and therefore a criminal.
    Id love for a DA to pull this one on me.
    My Ruger can handle up to probably 10grains of Unique, if not a bit more after seeing a few reloading recipes calling for 10.6gr.
    My reloads have 7.4 grains of Unique.
    Hardly 'superior killing ammo'

    I use my reloads because factory magnums are too much for the wife, but even 38+ps are too wimpy, in my opinion...so Ive got the reloads just at the high end of what my wife can handle in case she has to use the gun for SD in the apartment (say Im in the shower or something).

    I agree with the logic *IF* the reloads are pushing the envelope of power and/or the bullets used are especially destructive.
    Im using Hornady XTP that arent even true hollow points (FP's or something like that), so a DA would be hard pressed to prove my reloads were meant to destroy and/or maim.

    If anything he may end up looking like an idiot when its shown that I could easily toss in another 2.5 grains of powder and use a bullet that is a hell of a lot more destructive.

    I use my reloads strictly because I want as much as I can get without having it be too much for my wife to handle :)
    :)

  4. #79
    Member Array RugerSP101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    And it's more about how juries react, not judges.
    I could see my attorney now.
    "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, RugerSP101 only had 75% of the gunpowder he could have safely used to reload his SD ammo, nowhere near the full potential of the firearm he was using"


    "Next case...."

  5. #80
    Member Array RugerSP101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by walrusjax View Post
    Also, if attacked where lethal force is justified, I'm still looking to just "get away."
    Definitely agree.
    I figure if I guy just wants my wallet and I feel that hes going to take it and leave, Im not even going to bother trying to draw or even let him know I have a gun.
    He can have my wallet, I dont carry cash and cancelling my credit cards is a phone call away....not that Im liable for anything he'd buy with them anyway.
    As long as no ones life is in clear danger, my goal is to keep anyone, including the BG, from being shot at or killed.

  6. #81
    Member Array RugerSP101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNinjaGo View Post
    It's like saying you used a .45ACP/.357 magnum/etc etc instead of using a .22 or a .380 so it's MORE LETHAL.
    Excellent point.
    If I really wanted my 357 magnum to do more damage Id have bought a 44 magnum instead ;)

  7. #82
    Member Array RugerSP101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryM View Post
    Not correct. Unless I have fired all my ammo I have enough left to prove how it is loaded. If the bullet was recovered, and the fired cases it would be very easy to prove what the load was. Isn't that the way one would prove he used the same ammo as LE? In fact I would have several boxes of the ammo I would carry that would be unfired at home.

    Without rereading the post wasn't the problem regarding residue related to a light load? I would submit that my handloads would be as reproducible as factory ammo.

    Regards,
    Jerry
    And to be REALLY technical ANY of us who reload could have have simply used a bullet puller to remove the bullet and recharged/reloaded to any extent we wanted to.
    I hardly think its set in concrete that if I, a reloader, use a factory load that it IS in fact the factory load as I purchased it.

    I use 2 recipes for reloading and only these two.

    -Range ammo: 38 special brass, 158gr cast LRN with 4.3gr/Unique.
    and
    -SD ammo: 38 special brass, 125gr Hornady FP/XTP with 7.4gr Unique.

    Anyone in law enforcement can check my equipment and see that I have 2 Lee measuring dippers, one for each recipe, and figure out that if Ive had to use my Ruger to defend myself it was with one of the loads above.
    Since I dont have any range ammo currently loaded, its fairly obvious which ones were in the weapon.

    :)

  8. #83
    Senior Member Array rachilders's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    1,2 and 3 are all typical gun advice in a can. They get repeated and spouted over and over again by people who really don't know squat, but still feel the need to try and impress those who are impressionable.

    Anyway, none of it is terrible advice, but its also not necessarily advice to live by.
    +1.

    While it has been known to happen, the chances are many times greater you'll get arrested for a "bad" shoot (deadly force wasn't necessary in the view of the local DA or LEO's) than for the gun and ammo you used during the shoot.

    ONLY use deadly force if you are 100% sure that there is no other way out of the situation - including retreating to a safer location if one is available - and there won't be a problem 99.9% of the time for the shooter with the local law.
    "... Americans... we want a safe home, to keep the money we make and shoot bad guys." -- Denny Crane

  9. #84
    Member Array CommonMan101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Common man, what you're saying may be common sense, but that has little to do with reality in the court room. All the things people have discussed are points that a prosecuting attorney can and will use against you to make it look like you were a 'stone cold killer just waiting to use your gun.'

    If you havent already, I suggest doing some reading on the legal side and real life cases involving self-defense shootings. Mas Ayoob describes many in most of his books and they're good reading.

    I mean really, why not put that pretty little head to some good use?
    So what ammo in 10mm do you suggest? I am only using what seems to be equivilent to a load some police have carried for years. If you understood what I wrote you could see I wasn't loading for the hunt but in fact using a factory load for intended purposes. So what do you personally suggest?

  10. #85
    Member Array CommonMan101's Avatar
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    I've now officially worried my pretty little head over #3 too much but here are what some answers were to what the popo were using across the country and some whys. You'll see that none of them use anything based on what is "acceptable" to some jury. They mostly use ammo with two criteria. Are they deadly? and Are they going to break the bank with regular use? The guns used are also a budget driven choice of reliable, effective weapons- not what some jury may think of them.

    I am doing exactly what the cops have answered. I bought what works, is made for the job and fits in my budget. Remember - I only use factory, off the shelf ammo for SD. Not some highly crafted bullet of mass destruction made of depleted uranium with steering fins that zooms around and around calling everyone names then killing everyone in the room with only one pull of the trigger.

    Some posts particularly relate to some of these "worries" - I've commented in italicized bold on those.
    ----------------
    Federal Premium 125gr JHP (.357Sig) is our issue ammo.

    Location: West Texas , USA
    ---------------
    .40 cal. 180 grain Hydrashoks in our Glock 22s (uniformed officers), Glock 23s (command staff/narcs/plain clothes), Glock 27s(narcs/plainclothes), and USP 40s (SRT).

    In our last shooting (about three years ago), an armed robbery suspect caught one in the leg. He ended up losing his leg below the knee and his sorry, one-legged ***** is now serving 30 years for armed robbery and attempted murder.
    Location: SC, USA
    ----------------
    The department issues 230gr. Speer gold-dots for our Sig-Sauer P220s. I carry Cor-Bon 115gr +P in 9mm in my Glock 26!!
    Location: US
    ------------------
    We issue .40 S&W 155 grain Hydra-shok and Silver tips for our S&W 4006 pistols.
    Joe Picariello
    Princeton (MA) PD
    MLEFI&AA manual editor
    ------------------
    NSW police issue Winchester brand S&W .40cal 165 grain SXT expansion rounds for the Glock 22 (standard issue) and other glock pistols typically used.
    Location: nsw, australia
    ------------------
    We use Black Talons. I guess the PC version is Rangers. On duty, we can carry anything we want of at least .38 cal. I use a Beretta 92FS. The dept issues S&W 4506 "boat-anchors". In any case, we get good ammo with very few, if any, malfunctions.
    Location: Montrose, CO, USA

    OH NOES!! He even says he's not using what's knownn as a "pc" version? What would a jury think? and why no less than .38? Maybe less than that is not deadly enough? Of course!
    --------------
    Our office used Hydra-Shocks for years. Then a deputy shot someone in a struggle. The weapon was between them close enough to each to prevent it from cycling and chambering another round. The bullet went straight through, and then we got Rangers. Last year we turned in those, and now we have Silver Tips. WTFO? As I understand it any hollow point bullet needs a small amount of travel to open up (mushroom). Why can't they make up their minds? Is it money?
    Location: Virginia

    From online store: Winchester Ranger ammo can only be purchased by LE Agencies by PO. No sales to individual Police Officers or to the public.

    Great! They used ammo I'm not supposed to buy! Not fair! Why? Is Ranger ammo.... more destructive and deadly than what a peon like me is allowed? Guess I'm good to go with whatever I can legally get since it's not "LE only". I'll be sure to have my lawyer work that angle hard.

    Wait a minute! Ammo that wasn't destructive enough was replaced by a more deadly load THEN they changed again because of budget? Oh yeah, #1 it has to be deadly #2 They have to be able to afford it. Got it.

    ---------------
    Our dept. issues the cheapy stuff since its such a small town, for our Glock 22s. MagTech 180 grain JHP .40 S&W
    Location: Oshkosh, WI, USA

    Budgets seem to drive a lot of the decisions made. Same for me.
    ----------------------
    My agency issues 147 grain Winchester SXT 9mm. We've only had one shooting since the switch to that and it was the only fatal shooting we have had. Guess that is what it's supposed to do so.......
    Location: Maryland

    Yes, quite right. That aint a squirt gun we're talking about. It IS the use intended. How do people forget that?

    ------------------------
    Officers in my department buy their own ammo. I currently carry W-W 155 grain SilverTips in my Glock G22 and G27. I carry Estate brand 'Tactical' 00 buckshot and Brenneke slugs in my personally owned Beretta 1201FP.
    Location: Selmer, TN

    I'm bettin' that's the "baddest" you could find. no? What? No birdshot to let 'em have a fightin' chance? My! Let's worry - What would a jury say about that?

    -----------------------
    .45 - Guns for the Big Kids
    230 Gr. Hi-Shock JHP - Federal Classic
    How did that commercial go? => The right ammo to have when your shooting only one.
    Stay Safe
    Dave
    Location: Durham, NC

    Something tells me this "big kid" plays for keeps. Not very pc of him.

    ----------------
    Sounds like your Dept. is looking for that "magic" bullet. It does not exist. Since people are not made of ballistic gelatin, hollowpoints rarely perform as designed. When they do, that is great. I look at that as a bonus. Pretend you are shooting hardball ammo, and you won't be disappointed.

    Our county PD had an AD a few months ago. An undercover was shot by his supervisor during a drug sting. Luckily the Hydrashock got plugged with glass as it went through the car door window, so it did not expand. The officer is *very* lucky to be alive.

    Todd
    no location given

    Maybe every gun-shoot related jury should be instructed this before every trial.
    -----------------
    -----------------

    I AM SO DONE WITH WORRYING ABOUT WHAT THE LOCALS USE.

    If it suits you to fret over it then ... carry on.

    If I happen to sit on the jury for your trial I'll not let it be a factor. I'd hope the same came from others here. Because it's not nearly the factor that will matter the most. Was it a good shoot? It will not matter that you used a baseball bat or a cleaver to save your life, if that was all you had. There is no grading for style.

    Maybe my sigline should be...

    Antis: "Guns are only made for killing!"

    Me: Well, DUH! What's your point?

  11. #86
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommonMan101 View Post
    So what ammo in 10mm do you suggest? I am only using what seems to be equivilent to a load some police have carried for years. If you understood what I wrote you could see I wasn't loading for the hunt but in fact using a factory load for intended purposes. So what do you personally suggest?
    I dont use 10mm, so couldnt tell ya.

    I think what I picked up on was your comment about 'modifications.' You can do anything you want. And prosecutors have lovely little reasons for many of them which may translate as "killer" to a jury.

    I'm not supporting it, I'm just saying that it is a prosecutorial tactic. I have not experienced it, I've read about it. If you choose to disagree, fine. Anti's in a jury box are no more open-minded there than they are out on the streets.

    You make lots of good points in your very long thread. More power to you. In a court room, you will depend on a (expensive?) defense attorney to make them and hope that the jury agrees (if they even understand). Every one makes sense to me. However most of what you wrote means *nothing* to non-gun people (I dont mean antis, I mean people who know little about guns, period.)

    Mas Ayoob describes this stuff in detail in his books. My thought is that prudence, where it doesnt affect effectiveness, is a good idea.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  12. #87
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    So, you havent read the original post or the thread?

    And it's more about how juries react, not judges.
    Do you have ANY time in court other than as a witness or a defendant?

    Do you have ANY formal education in this area?

    The speculation presented in this thread is at the best irresponsible rambling, and at worst reckless.

    I do felony level criminal defense as part of my practice, and the mistaken ideas expressed of how to present any facts to either a judge & prosecutor in conference, or to a jury in court is, flatly, wrong.

    This is a laughably off track thread, which I am reading with the same amusement as I would watch a train crash involving Cheerleaders, 100K gallons of vegetable oil, rabbits & bird seed.

    I have previously posted on this thread, #15.

    In order to save you the mental effort of finding it, which was likely exhausted by your witless attempt at sarcasm, my post is here in bold:

    I think these are very gear centered points unworthy of further discussion.

    I think people will insist their gear have a "individuality" factor which, combined with a skewed and poor understanding of, and the lack of ability to apply correctly, the use of force rules they live under, that their weapon, ammunition and other minutia will untimately be inconsequential to the outcome of the situation.

    People SAY they want to know answers to questions like this, yet when professionals like people in the law enforcement field, legal system and firearm professionals offer answers, everyone gets in a snit because their ideas aren't validated, so they end up doing whatever they want to.

    If you are still hung up on handloading your carry ammo, do it.
    If you want to carry a particular round, go for it.
    If you want to install a competition trigger in your carry weapon, I hope it gives you a smile on your face.

    Want to know a secret?

    It's sort of an open secret...but I'll spell it out for you.

    The less "W T (cleaned up...) H" factor your gear has, the better.

    If your shooting is "clean" with no "interesting" factors like the amount of rounds fired, entry wounds in the back of the dead guy, no honest, well meaning witnesses (who saw the whole thing) yet interpreted events wrong...doesn't matter what you used.

    However...If you plan for a shooting and the aftermath to go off without a hitch, you are smoking some stuff that the DEA, FDA, CDC, FBI & the White House would like samples of for research.

    While I know this is a very unpopular thing to say, especially if it's being said by someone who has actual experience in dealing with the representation of real defendants in real court before real judges and prosecutors...

    Keep it simple.
    Keep it realistic.
    Keep it relevant.

    Avoid the temptation to get clever.
    Avoid the temptation to assume you know better "just because".
    Avoid the temptation to think that you have a firm understanding of all the factors which will be in play should you need to shoot someone, and that you can play the factors to your advantage while you are a suspect/defendant.

    Sometimes the best answer is the simplest one.

    Factory ammo.
    The weapon kept stock with the exception of sights of your choosing.
    Relevant, realistic, recent training in tactics and law.

    You want to go off on how the prosecutor is out to get you if you use handloads...fine.

    But I'll tell you this, because 24 hours ago, I was sitting in a judge's chambers with the major felony prosecutors discussing my client's fate...

    Ain't ONE person who thinks prosecutors are just looking to screw the people that defend themselves got a clue.

    If it comes to the point a prosecutor is signing a warrant and submitting it to a judgeTHE PERSON WHO WAS 'DEFENDING' THEMSELVES SCREWED UP TO A DEGREE THAT THEY MADE A GUY WHO SEES EVERY NASTY THING THAT NASTY PEOPLE DO, AND PUTS BAD PEOPLE IN JAIL FOR A LIVING BELIEVE THE SHOOTER IS ONE OF THEM


    Your futile attempts to "wargame" the courtroom have you and everyone else who subscribes to the pitiful notion that a few canned things to say ("I was in fear for my life...), a change of carry ammo to match some what the local cops got the best deal on, and a gun with the stock springs in it will make everything OK.

    This obscenely tight equipment focus is the hallmark of the ignorant who will continue downward into a self destructive, self reinforcing, confused state of affairs were the pursuit of the ultimate litigation proof weapon is the Holy Grail.

    Take training from someone with a JD or who is admitted to the bar on the lawful use of force.
    Take force on force classes and apply the information you learned.
    Be familiar with your rights and know when to use them.

    Or...you can go ahead and continue the train wreck of trying to match ammo with the local police, and speculating if 124 grain +P Gold Dot like the NYPD uses is OK in Court - but 115 grain Gold Dot +p+ is too deadly...

  13. #88
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=MitchellCT;1444287]Do you have ANY time in court other than as a witness or a defendant?

    Do you have ANY formal education in this area?

    The speculation presented in this thread is at the best irresponsible rambling, and at worst reckless.



    In order to save you the mental effort of finding it, which was likely exhausted by your witless attempt at sarcasm, my post is here in bold:

    QUOTE]

    Apparently you didnt expend a whole lot of mental effort in comprehending my posts. And I didnt use sarcasm anywhere, so again, your ability to interpret the written word is worrisome if you are a lawyer...Internet or not.

    Most of what I wrote is in agreement with your tirade...and I dont even have a law degree!

    I'm pretty sure I havent written a thing that I didnt get from Mas Ayoob or other experts. Got a problem? Take it up with them or dont read my posts.

    And I wrapped up my last post with: "My thought is that prudence, where it doesnt affect effectiveness, is a good idea."
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  14. #89
    Senior Member Array KevinDooley's Avatar
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    Here's my thoughts on the matter. Carry what is effective to protecting your life. Not your thought of effective (or mine), but what experts have determined and come to a consensus on as effective. Never use it unless there is absolutely no other way out of the situation. After using it, keep your mouth shut until the experienced lawyer you've already built a relationship with shows up and tells you what to say.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes

    The will to win is worthless if you do not have the will to prepare. -Thane Yost

  15. #90
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    "Cheerleaders, 100K gallons of vegetable oil,"

    Interesting !

    bosco

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