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Would you use your gun in defense of others?

  • My gun is used only for me and family

    Votes: 37 17.8%
  • I would defend a 3rd party if it was lawful

    Votes: 163 78.4%
  • I would only defend a 3rd party if they were a child

    Votes: 8 3.8%
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In defense of others

9K views 126 replies 70 participants last post by  JD 
#1 ·
Using the "reasonable person" logic, are you willing to use your CCW or OC weapon in defense of others if you are watching a crime happen or unfold that would justify the use of a gun.

I don't want to hear you opinion on how foolish you think someone elses stand is, you can say why you would do what you would, but DON'T degrade others opinions on their course of action.

I would like to know what % of the forum members here would do what, so vote in the pole that comes closest to your beliefs.

Z
 
#45 ·
I voted for protection of me and my family. IMO the other 2 choices are to general in scope. You come upon a fight you have no idea who or what caused it. The person you "protect" may very well be the instigator. A child screaming and fighting an adult may be a child not wanting to go with a parent, you have no way to know for sure.

The case of an attempted rape or if you see and hear a robbery from the start is a different story. Unfortunately just coming around a corner and seeing one person holding a gun on another does not make the guy with the gun the bad guy. My first priority is myself and my family.
 
#50 ·
I voted that I would defend a 3rd party but I can say this, it would have to be 100% clear what the circumstances are. I will not jump into a situation without knowing what is going on and end up with my butt in a sling.

Now, if it is a child I am defending, I will definitely step in to defend a child.
 
#51 ·
Two things:

1) Crawling into a burning automobile to pull another person to safety is not a valid parallel to shooting an attacker, because when you run toward the flames there is no risk of killing an innocent person (other than yourself) if you misunderstand the flow of events. But when you intervene with gun in hand, that is exactly and precisely the risk you are taking.

2) Lawsuits aren't the primary fear that would keep a trained and responsible person from jumping in. Fear of killing the wrong person is really the primary fear, followed closely (and not unreasonably) by the fear of spending the entire rest of your life in jail for getting it wrong.

So...

If you choose to intervene using firearms, you'd better be overwhelmingly certain you understand exactly what is happening, who the aggressor really is, whether or not the innocent really is innocent or merely looks that way.

And you'd also better be dirty-word certain you can back up your plans with an honest and realistic understanding of your own limitations and skills. The fact is that when intervening in someone else's fight, you are likely to be facing

  • a confusing, chaotic situation
  • with rapidly-moving participants
  • including at least one and possibly multiple innocents close to the attacker but whom you must not hit,
  • and distances somewhat or significantly greater than you would face when using the firearm in your own defense.

How good is your shooting, really? Is your accuracy really good enough to cope with a small, distant, moving target under extreme stress, and no matter how much stress you feel are your shots absolutely guaranteed not to go astray and kill an innocent bystander or witness?

If you are not 100% confident -- realistically confident -- in your ability to do that, then perhaps you'd better rethink your plans to intervene.

Think long and hard about that, whichever way you choose. And then if you still don't think you could ever walk away or tend your own family first, for God's sake and the sake of every person who has ever loved you: get some good training and keep it fresh.

pax
 
#53 ·
Lots of good discussion on the issue here.

Let's all agree that probably none of us are so cold-hearted that we would just laugh at someone being brutally murdered, chalk it up to them being unprepared, and go on our merry way. That is caricature.

Likewise I doubt that any are planning on becoming a vigilante, going all Punisher on people who they feel need "justice." Again, a caricature.

That being said, the other categories are vague and difficult to assess. Would I step in if I saw a woman being raped? Darn right I would, because I have a wife and daughters and it's the right thing to do. Would I step in if I saw two guys going at it and one draws a knife? That is far murkier, especially if I have family around. I certainly would not step in without all the answers.

Lima, I am willing to bet you'd step in to prevent a crime like a rape or a kidnapping, whether that is a child or not. And for some of us who have said that they would step in, there are obviously a lot of times that you would get to cover, protect your brood, and be a witness.

And for the record I voted that I would step in for a 3rd party, because I can see plenty of instances when I would.
 
#54 ·
I would only intervene if someone was in immediate danger of death or serious injury.I'm not gonna just watch someone get beat to death or burn in a fire or something if I can at least try to help.

Any other crime I might see..... I have a cell phone if I feel a call to the police is necessary. I'm not a cop, nor do I get paid to fight crime.
 
#55 ·
Tough questions

This is a tough one. I generally have the instinct to help others. Its the BSA law and a good rule of thumb too.

That said, if I saw some altercation with two people I didn't know, I don't think Id draw. Ive got a son and wife. Those people in the altercation may be fighting over drugs that one stole from the other, or some such nonsense.

But I can't exactly say I'm on the page of NOT helping others. For example, I think about one of my closest friends in the whole world, a women I would march into the gaping maw of hell for if she needed me to. If she was being threatened would I draw to protect her life? Abso-friggin-lutely. But is she family? No. Son, daughter, wife, etc...No, on all counts. Shes just an innocent third party. But I would risk my life any day for her.

So while I cant say I would be willing to draw for a third party, meaning someone I see in public I cant exactly say its for just my "family". My family is bigger than just that.

Alex!
 
#56 ·
I'm fairly certain that nearly all of us would come to the aid of another if we were reasonably certain of the situation. I'd like to think I would jump in to assist another. And no matter what you state here I can think of a few real situations that I am certain everyone here would use their gun and jump in to stop the situation and even hand your child off to a stranger to do so because they were very clear situations with a known outcome if someone didn't stop the BG.

On a different note, one tough situation at a neighborhood store here happened a few years back where the REALLY bad guys took permanent care of a wannabe bad guy playing the big shot and got caught with his hand in the cookie jar. Bad guys out on a hit to take care of another BG. If I happened on that crime in progress and I stopped it with a gun or some other measure, the really bad guys or their associates would have definitely gone after my family. So of course it will always depend on the situation but yoou have to read it correctly.
 
#58 ·
I'm fairly certain that nearly all of us would come to the aid of another if we were reasonably certain of the situation.
That's my sentiment, essentially.

I require knowing who the GG/BG are, knowing whether there's a good chance of my actions making a difference, and knowing there's a good chance of my actions being seen as honorable and good. Basically, when it's clear what's right and what needs doing. Without that, if it's not clear and instead (claimed) "innocents" are being threatened by my actions, then all I'd be doing is swinging karma's manure cart from one head over to mine, helping to destroy my own family's future.

Thank society's generally over-developed sense of power and bloodlust for that, going after good sams with such relish as is so often the case. Sad, what that has caused. Want it to be different? So do I. Once it is, we'll have presumption of innocence; we'll have protection of claimed self-defense and defense of others; we'll have tens of millions of good sams lauded for the good they do, going way beyond what anyone imagines in order to help and protect others. I'll be one of them. Absolutely. We need that day to come. And all it takes is simple change in a few statutes and refusal to indict in cases of do-good such as we're discussing. So close, and yet so far.

That all being said, we do need to keep in mind that not all "help" requires use of a firearm, if firearm is the only real defensive tool one has in hand. Help can take many forms. As we know from Lott's research and statistical work, it's clear that a huge percentage of situations are stopped merely by someone having the potential ability to stop a crime. Many crimes are stopped by display of a weapon. Many are stopped simply by someone being there, yelling for help, bringing two friends, videotaping the scene. Even in bad situations where overt physical involvement won't stop the crime, documenting the license plates/people involved, trailing the perps, at least calling for the cavalry ... all of these things are providing help. In certain situations, they might be the best choices, depending on circumstances. I highly doubt anyone here would do zip, ignoring the need of another entirely, particularly when the situation appears dire.

As usual, Pax makes several lucid and valid points. In short, getting it wrong can have dire consequences for all involved.
 
#57 ·
Well, ya had to go and open a can of worms on new years day didn't ya, SleepingZ?

I voted "if it were lawfull", but I'd like to add "it depends"

Violence tends to unfold very very quickly leaving even very observant people wondering what just happened.
That, coupled with the knowledge that I am solely responsible for my own actions are going to cause me to reach for my phone first.

But there too, I've seen stories where dialing 911 on a cell phone drew the BG's attention and got the good samaritan attacked. But in that case, shooting would be justified as it would then be self defense.

There are countless other potential factors also, as every situation is unique in some way, and there's no way to fully predict. But I have been known to keep my wits in high-stress situations, and call for help rather than melt down or tackle a situation I was simply physically incapable of handling alone. (Not a SD situation, there was an accident at work and I was able to call for help and prevent a fatality)
 
#59 ·
I have not read the entire thread, and I have no intention to, or get involved in any discussion. Each person has the right to make a decision and and obligation to live with the consequences of that decision, right or wrong.

Me and mine.

3rd party, there would have to be soooooo much intel on the parties involved - I'd have to be there 100% from the start, and witness 100% that an innocent life is in dire jeopardy, then there is my risk factor, bystander risk factor...and there is absolutely no other options available.
 
#60 ·
3rd party, there would have to be soooooo much intel on the parties involved - I'd have to be there 100% from the start, and witness 100% that an innocent life is in dire jeopardy, then there is my risk factor, bystander risk factor...and there is absolutely no other options available.
:yup:

While there are some few situations where it's crystal clear, generally there are a lot of criteria to be met before it's certain any "help" would be helpful. There's the rub.
 
#61 ·
I would use my pistol to defend anyones life that I perceive to be in mortal danger by an obvious attacker, provided that I can safely and lawfully intervene. Not trying to be a hero, just don't wanna be a zero either. YMMV

GBK
 
#62 ·
Hey Y'all: It has been said by previous posters but deserves another reply. In SC we have the alter ego rule that applies to exactly what SleepingZ's thread is all about. ONLY problem is when you come across WHAT APPEARS to be a situation and you react without knowing WHAT IS the situation. Better be darn sure and til then 911 and yelling and screaming to get an initial "pause" in the situation or more people involved and/or more witnesses, should you take action.
 
#64 ·
Good point. Im not that old to have alot of decades behind me, but your right about the potential hazards when you help with your gun. Ill protect my family.
 
#68 ·
Reading several gun forums over the years, I'm generally more apprehensive of sheepdogs than wolves.
Couldn't have said it better my self
 
#72 ·
1) Too many variables to answer any of the three questions.
2) My first obligation is to may family, and that includes not burdening them financially by intervening in a situation where I don't have all the facts.
3) We all make choices. I choose to do what I have to do to protect my family and loved one. Others may make other choices not to take that responsibility to the extent I do. With choices come consequences. If you choose not to carry a weapon, then the tacit choice is reduce your ability to protect yourself, family and loved ones. Why should I assume that responsibility because I choose to carry a firearm?

Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is one definition of insanity. Why do so many people continue to depend upon a government which time and again has proven it's inability or unwillingness to protect us domestically?

The answer, as far as I'm concerned is that it depends upon the circumstances. But the circumstances would have to be pretty drastic before I chose to intervene and put my family at risk. It has very, very little to do with personal risk and a lot to do with my family's ongoing protection. Those who choose to leave their family and self defense up to others have made choice they have to live with. I've made a choice I have to live with. For most practical purposes, I will intervene to the extent of dialing 911 and being a hell of a good witness.
 
#73 ·
"self-sacrafice for the common good"
That's a fine, flighty phrase that deserves to be in an epic novel - and probably is.

Sacrifice for others is a good and noble cause, and SOMETIMES appropriate. It may get you written up in the local paper, or given an honorary dinner and speech or even some type of citizen's medal. It may also get you very dead.

My FIRST and only REAL duty is to my wife and family, and anything that might prevent that is WAY down on the list. It's a fine thing to be honored posthumously for saving someone else while your widow tries to pay the mortgage and your children keep asking, "Where is Daddy?"

I'm not a LEO or a soldier. I don't get paid to fight and protect. I truly admire those who do and we're all forever in their debt - but it ain't my job.

IF I can help someone while assuring that
I survive - I certainly will. Bottom line - I will come home to my family.
 
#78 ·
I'm not a LEO or a soldier. I don't get paid to fight and protect. I truly admire those who do and we're all forever in their debt - but it ain't my job.

IF I can help someone while assuring that
I survive - I certainly will. Bottom line - I will come home to my family.
Most of us don't do it for a paycheck...
 
#86 ·
Ahh, the old ‘would you jump in’ if…? Poll question. Since I’ve run out of original responses to this rather common topic, I’ll just sorta quote myself (in part) from another thread. Frankly, none of the poll options really apply to me. My actions would be governed by circumstance rather than any pre-conceived personal policy. In the abstract, I don’t want to get involved unless I have to, although human emotions would inevitably override logic.

Most of my life I worked in the service of others, so it was always natural for me to jump right in. Today I’m older, less physically fit and hopefully a bit wiser. I have learned that people are far more brazen and unpredictable. Likewise, I’m armed, so any intervention on my part will place my gun in close proximity to whatever I volunteer to do...”​

As such, the risks are high while the dividends are low. With my luck, I would save someone’s life while being considered a 'hero' and two-years later, that same 'someone' would turn around and sue me for mental anguish.
Regards,

Daniel O.
 
#87 ·
I think some people here have taken the term self-defense to a form of selfish-defense when it should be selfless-defense. Just sayin ....
 
#90 ·
I think some people here have taken the term self-defense to a form of selfish-defense when it should be selfless-defense.
So, one's own children and family have less value than a random stranger, who will be one of a dozen on any given day in a sizable city that will be attacked that day? And a person's supposed to judge that way because guilt trips are forthcoming otherwise? By what standard is one's own child to be so valueless? Because others say so? Because that should be better that way?

Dictating terms by which others live their lives or how they value life is the thing done daily by autocratic masters in elected positions that so angers free citizens. Caution. :nono:

Having that ability is the essence of liberty. Having that erased is the absence of liberty. Be careful what you wish for.
 
#99 ·
I can't vote in this poll, the simple choices given don't take into account all the variables possible.

Lima's comments closely echo my own thoughts though.

Observing an altercation between two strangers it may be very difficult to tell who is the "good guy" and who is the "bad guy". First impressions can be wrong.

Maybe the little guy assaulted the linebacker's daughter.

Maybe it's a drug deal gone bad, maybe it would be best if they just took each other out of the gene pool.

I will not say I would never get involved, but I would have to be very, very sure of what I was seeing before I would consider deadly force. My CCW does not make me a cop, or Rambo, or make me a mind reader. My weapon is not my only tool. It's a tool of last resort.

There could be situations where a couple warning shots (in a safe direction) might be appropriate.

If I thought a child was being attacked or abducted I would be much more inclined to get involved, but what if little johnny is just having a tantrum and daddy is trying to take him home? How can you be sure?

Be a good witness and get license numbers, discriptions, and call 911, maybe even follow while on the phone to LEO's.
 
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