In defense of others - Page 2

In defense of others

This is a discussion on In defense of others within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by limatunes However, they still have the same rights to defend themselves no matter what they've done. They can still do hand-to-hand defense ...

View Poll Results: Would you use your gun in defense of others?

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  • My gun is used only for me and family

    37 17.79%
  • I would defend a 3rd party if it was lawful

    163 78.37%
  • I would only defend a 3rd party if they were a child

    8 3.85%
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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    However, they still have the same rights to defend themselves no matter what they've done. They can still do hand-to-hand defense and execute the same caution and awareness that I do. There's nothing that says they have to stand there and take it just because they once committed an offense that bars them from carrying a defensive tool.
    Also, if it was just a one time, dumb act, they've done their time and paid for their crimes then they can go through the process of getting their rights restored.

    Again, they are adults, it's up to them to take the initiative. Why should I risk my life and a future life with my family.. the happiness of my husband and son.. because someone didn't take the initiative to defend themselves?

    Like I said before, if it was also someone who had it coming and I lost my life defending them, how exactly is my husband supposed to explain to his son that his Mommy isn't around anymore because she defended someone who was really a bad guy?

    Nope.. not a risk I'm remotely willing to take.

    I will certainly call the authorities and be a good witness... in some situations I MAY lay down a cloud of pepper spray on everyone involved but I would be EXTREMELY EXTREMELY hesitant to use my firearm in intervene on behalf of battling adults who are strangers to me.


  2. #17
    Member Array MrReady's Avatar
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    I dont think calling someone a coward is cool. If I make the choice NOT to carry a firearm to protect my life, thats my choice. I cant hold ANYONE liable for protecting me. I would love to help people but I do not have to do so. Its each persons choice. I wont call anyone a name for helping/not helping a "victim". Its all opinion. No person is right/wrong on the issue. Just throwing that out there.
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  3. #18
    Member Array LethalStang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    Then it's their own fault for doing something criminally that bars them from having the same rights to carry as me.

    However, they still have the same rights to defend themselves no matter what they've done. They can still do hand-to-hand defense and execute the same caution and awareness that I do. There's nothing that says they have to stand there and take it just because they once committed an offense that bars them from carrying a defensive tool.

    I also have no idea if the adult in the confrontation has it coming to them or not. I'd hate to "rescue" someone only to find out he was getting beat up for raping some guy's sister.

    Yes, while children can also be little pills and are certainly capable or wrong, if I see someone beating on a ten year old kid or dragging a 12 year old girl down the street by her hair, or worse, I think it's a safer bet that he or she didn't do anything too horrible to warrant such treatment.

    As I said, we hold children to a different standard by limiting them in their defensive means. That and.. they are children.. they can't always fight for themselves.
    Limatunes, I highly respect your degree of knowledge and ideas, but this one i have to disagree with you on. It is not our duty to judge, but it is our duty as human beings to help others in distress to the best of our ability. We dont know what people have been convicted of or whether they are totally innocent by just looking at them or over-hearing an arguement. I would be very discouraged if i was being attacked and you did nothing to help but stand there and call LE, especially if you had the means to help such as OC or firearm. We have to try and turn around the selfish ideals that society has mutated into to a way of looking out for one another.
    Quote Originally Posted by rottkeeper View Post
    If you are living your life worried about being a victim all the time and not enjoying life to the fullest, you are already a victim...
    -You don't know what you don't see-

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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tubby45 View Post
    Only a coward watches a helpless victim suffer.
    How do you know who's helpless and who is the victim? How do you know the person "in need" really isn't the bad guy on the receiving end of self-defense? How do you know whether or not you're walking into a beef between two very bad people?

    I'm sorry to say that not even the presence of a uniform depicts who's good and who's bad these days. Certainly, it's a safer bet that the uniformed guy on the street getting the skin kicked off him is the good guy rather than the other choices but it's still no guarantee.

    And what if you are standing there with your child in your arms? What do you do? Tell the next person passing by to watch your kid while you go to some strangers aide? What about your own responsibility to your family? What about the safety of your child? If something should happen to you are you going to trust this random stranger to not abandon your child? What then?

    I think you need to consider what you've said very carefully.

    A brave man who rushes head-long into an unknown situation may save the day, but they may also leave a family behind to suffer for it.

    A wise man picks his battles and comes home at the end of the day to a grateful family.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tubby45 View Post
    Only a coward watches a helpless victim suffer.
    It's name calling and posts like this that the OP did not want this thread to denigrate to.

    It has nothing to do with cowardice, it's a choice all are free to make and live with. Although I would help, I do not criticize others for opting not to.

    We are all free to make that decision for our own reasons and without ridicule.

    Lima has presented a good reason, if I had children maybe I would be more hesitant to help. But my nature has always been to help those in trouble.
    For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the son of man be. Mathew 24:27

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  6. #21
    pax
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    Here's an article I wrote awhile back addressing that question: Saving the Life of a Stranger

    I cannot truthfully choose any of your poll choices, as you will see -- but I do have a fairly bright and firm line.

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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by LethalStang View Post
    It is not our duty to judge, but it is our duty as human beings to help others in distress to the best of our ability.
    It is most CERTAINLY our duty to judge and to use our absolute BEST judgment.

    When we take on the responsibility of carrying a lethal means of self-defense we take on the responsibility of being judges of EVERY situation and of everyone we come in contact with.

    We avoid people who look suspicious because we have judged them and decided it would be more prudent of us to avoid them even if there is the SLIGHtest of hints they may be questionable. They could be Sunday-school teachers for all we know but still we pass judgment to avoid the mere possibility of coming to a wrong conclusion.

    We dont know what people have been convicted of or whether they are totally innocent by just looking at them or over-hearing an arguement.
    EXACTLY!! And this is exactly why I don't want to get involved. I know only what I have done and I know only that my primary responsibility is to myself and my family. That is all I know.

    I am going to defer to my knowledge and stay away from situations I have judged to be dangerous.

    I would be very discouraged if i was being attacked and you did nothing to help but stand there and call LE, especially if you had the means to help such as OC or firearm. We have to try and turn around the selfish ideals that society has mutated into to a way of looking out for one another.
    I'm sorry but I don't know you. I don't know what you look like. I don't know what you've done and I certainly don't know what is going on.

    I already said I may use OC spray if I could do so safely but I doubt very seriously that I would use a gun to defend a stranger.

    I also have a priority to my responsibilities. In the last year I have not been out in public without my child and I don't care if you're the pope, I'm not abandoning my child to come to your aide. I won't apologize for that.

    Yes, it would be great to see the "selfish" attitude of our society turn around but until it does I refuse to be a Lone Ranger.

  8. #23
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    Defend myself and family only. I may choose to help out if I am in the mood that day, I know all the facts and who to help and don't put myself at more than minor risk. I have no duty to get involved either legally or ethically (my ethics not yours). I carry a self-defense weapon designed for close in use and that is what I practice for. I am not trained in anything else. I am not a sheep, a sheepdog or a wolf. I try to be a self-sufficient human, no more, no less.

  9. #24
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    I agree that we must judge our surroundings and avoid conflict by all means necessary. BUT, if i see someone in need of help and is being brutally attacked by someone else, i am going to help the best that i can. Maybe its because i have testosterone flowing through my veins, or maybe it was because i was a CO and you always have someone's back, regardless i am somewhat disappointed that someone of your nature and expertise would simply not interject to help. We all say it time and again that LE is minutes away but thats exactly what you're suggesting to wait for. I understand that just because we carry firearms doesnt mean we are civilian LE and that we should jump into anything, but we're talking about HELPING someone in dire need at THAT moment, not 5 minutes later.
    Quote Originally Posted by rottkeeper View Post
    If you are living your life worried about being a victim all the time and not enjoying life to the fullest, you are already a victim...
    -You don't know what you don't see-

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  10. #25
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    No if, and,s or buts about it, I am my brother's keeper. If we don't all stand up against tyranny, bullies, or common thugs. they will continue to flourish.

    I don't care about the consequences. I have to face my self in the mirror every morning.
    Paladin: A defender or advocate of a noble cause.
    Bud

    When the cute TV reporter asked the Texas Ranger why he shot the bank robber six times with his.45, he replied, ""Cause they don't make a .50"[/I]

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    It is most CERTAINLY our duty to judge and to use our absolute BEST judgment.

    When we take on the responsibility of carrying a lethal means of self-defense we take on the responsibility of being judges of EVERY situation and of everyone we come in contact with.

    We avoid people who look suspicious because we have judged them and decided it would be more prudent of us to avoid them even if there is the SLIGHtest of hints they may be questionable. They could be Sunday-school teachers for all we know but still we pass judgment to avoid the mere possibility of coming to a wrong conclusion.



    EXACTLY!! And this is exactly why I don't want to get involved. I know only what I have done and I know only that my primary responsibility is to myself and my family. That is all I know.

    I am going to defer to my knowledge and stay away from situations I have judged to be dangerous.



    I'm sorry but I don't know you. I don't know what you look like. I don't know what you've done and I certainly don't know what is going on.

    I already said I may use OC spray if I could do so safely but I doubt very seriously that I would use a gun to defend a stranger.

    I also have a priority to my responsibilities. In the last year I have not been out in public without my child and I don't care if you're the pope, I'm not abandoning my child to come to your aide. I won't apologize for that.

    Yes, it would be great to see the "selfish" attitude of our society turn around but until it does I refuse to be a Lone Ranger.
    By using your OC spray you may have committed yourself to the next level in the continuum of force if the threat does not stop or gets worse.

    Anyone who has decided they would not use their gun should not use any force as it may ultimately lead to raising the stakes.
    For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the son of man be. Mathew 24:27

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  12. #27
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    When I first entered this thread, I thought that I knew what my poll choice would be. I thought for sure that I would defend strangers if needed. But reading everyone's posts has changed my opinion. I will save lethal force for me and my own.

    Limatunes is absolutely right, we are required to judge in every situation we encounter. I don't want to be responsible for using lethal force on the good guy because I entered myself into a situation and judged wrong. I will call the police and be a good witness as well. But I do not want to accept the consequences (both legal and personal) in defense of someone I don't know and for a situation that I do not know.

  13. #28
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    Yes, I'll help but with some serious conditions. If a friend were in trouble I'd of course jump into action. For a stranger it would need to be a clear-cut situation with near zero risk to me. I'm not getting killed for some stranger by an accomplice hiding around the corner, or going to jail because I chose to help the nicely-dressed drug dealer in his new car defend himself against the scruffy undercover cop.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by enk5 View Post
    When I first entered this thread, I thought that I knew what my poll choice would be. I thought for sure that I would defend strangers if needed. But reading everyone's posts has changed my opinion. I will save lethal force for me and my own.

    Limatunes is absolutely right, we are required to judge in every situation we encounter. I don't want to be responsible for using lethal force on the good guy because I entered myself into a situation and judged wrong. I will call the police and be a good witness as well. But I do not want to accept the consequences (both legal and personal) in defense of someone I don't know and for a situation that I do not know.
    And what happens when that good guy was actually a bad guy and he killed the victim, all with you a safe distance away. I'm sorry but i couldnt live with myself if I knew i could've possibly changed the outcome. Its all about what you do on this earth that reflects your legacy later on. Standing in the safe and watching is not exactly the honorable thing to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by rottkeeper View Post
    If you are living your life worried about being a victim all the time and not enjoying life to the fullest, you are already a victim...
    -You don't know what you don't see-

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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by LethalStang View Post
    It is not our duty to judge, but it is our duty as human beings to help others in distress to the best of our ability.
    So we should just wade in gun drawn and possibly go straight to executioner? It seems like we are judging the one doing the beating just fine without knowing exactly what we're getting into.

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