In defense of others

This is a discussion on In defense of others within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I would use my pistol to defend anyones life that I perceive to be in mortal danger by an obvious attacker, provided that I can ...

View Poll Results: Would you use your gun in defense of others?

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  • My gun is used only for me and family

    37 17.79%
  • I would defend a 3rd party if it was lawful

    163 78.37%
  • I would only defend a 3rd party if they were a child

    8 3.85%
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Thread: In defense of others

  1. #61
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    I would use my pistol to defend anyones life that I perceive to be in mortal danger by an obvious attacker, provided that I can safely and lawfully intervene. Not trying to be a hero, just don't wanna be a zero either. YMMV

    GBK
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." Thomas Jefferson

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  3. #62
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Hey Y'all: It has been said by previous posters but deserves another reply. In SC we have the alter ego rule that applies to exactly what SleepingZ's thread is all about. ONLY problem is when you come across WHAT APPEARS to be a situation and you react without knowing WHAT IS the situation. Better be darn sure and til then 911 and yelling and screaming to get an initial "pause" in the situation or more people involved and/or more witnesses, should you take action.

  4. #63
    Member Array MaricopaKid's Avatar
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    Coming to the aid of my fellow man is a no-brainer in certain situations. Car wrecks, burning buildings, and potential drownings are one thing. Firearms introduce a whole set of different rules. I gave up heroic dreams decades ago.

    Reading several gun forums over the years, I'm generally more apprehensive of sheepdogs than wolves.

  5. #64
    Ex Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaricopaKid View Post
    Coming to the aid of my fellow man is a no-brainer in certain situations. Car wrecks, burning buildings, and potential drownings are one thing. Firearms introduce a whole set of different rules. I gave up heroic dreams decades ago.

    Reading several gun forums over the years, I'm generally more apprehensive of sheepdogs than wolves.
    Good point. Im not that old to have alot of decades behind me, but your right about the potential hazards when you help with your gun. Ill protect my family.

  6. #65
    Member Array alnitak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tubby45 View Post
    Only a coward watches a helpless victim suffer.
    Only a fool rushes in...

    911 is your friend. Be a good witness unless you're 100% sure of the circumstances and the legalities involved. Even then, be prepared to be sued or arrested (probably both), and spend tens of thousands of dollars in lawyer fees.

    Frankly, my first responsibility is to my family, including minimizing the financial burden on them.

  7. #66
    VIP Member Array xXxplosive's Avatar
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    What he said.......................

  8. #67
    Member Array alnitak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LethalStang View Post
    ... but it is our duty as human beings to help others in distress to the best of our ability.
    What?? Where did you get that from??

    We have no "duty" to help another person. One may feel a moral obligation to jump in, but mankind has no "duty" to help another person.

    If you study the origins and development of social behavior and associated principles (such as altruism), one can postulate an evolutionary imperative to operate for "the greater good" as a means of furthering the "clan". However, any attempt to extend that concept into a "duty" is just a reflection of your own personal bias.

    I am not disagreeing that your perspective is "moral", "just" or "right" -- only you can judge that -- but I do disagree with your broad statement that we all have a "duty" to protect and sacrifice for our fellow man --- no more so than the "duty" of zebra on the fringe of a herd have to be eaten so that those on the inside can be saved. The herd survival mechanism doesn't create a demand, or "duty", on any individual actions .

  9. #68
    Ex Member Array Treo's Avatar
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    Reading several gun forums over the years, I'm generally more apprehensive of sheepdogs than wolves.
    Couldn't have said it better my self

  10. #69
    Member Array LethalStang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alnitak View Post
    What?? Where did you get that from??

    We have no "duty" to help another person. One may feel a moral obligation to jump in, but mankind has no "duty" to help another person.

    If you study the origins and development of social behavior and associated principles (such as altruism), one can postulate an evolutionary imperative to operate for "the greater good" as a means of furthering the "clan". However, any attempt to extend that concept into a "duty" is just a reflection of your own personal bias.

    I am not disagreeing that your perspective is "moral", "just" or "right" -- only you can judge that -- but I do disagree with your broad statement that we all have a "duty" to protect and sacrifice for our fellow man --- no more so than the "duty" of zebra on the fringe of a herd have to be eaten so that those on the inside can be saved. The herd survival mechanism doesn't create a demand, or "duty", on any individual actions .
    You're right, we dont have a duty to do that, it is merely a personal idea and belief for me to help others because i would want someone else to do that for me. Let me say this, that Lima was right about judging a situation, and every situation needs a certain degree of pre-judging. If it looks apparent that the altercation looks to be among a couple thugs or something, than no i would not jump to aid directly. Last night i made myself sound like i would go into something for anybody and that is not entirely true, but most situations out there can be assessed in a few seconds as to what is going on. Also, the thread started with using a gun, this also doesnt always apply. I may run to the aid of someone without even brandishing a gun if one has not been brandished from the assailant. To be 99% certain is the same thing as just walking away because there is no way to know unless you were there from the start. To be 50% certain would be enough for me to jump in and help the victim, whether the victim has the gun or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by rottkeeper View Post
    If you are living your life worried about being a victim all the time and not enjoying life to the fullest, you are already a victim...
    -You don't know what you don't see-

    1*

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  11. #70
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaricopaKid View Post
    Coming to the aid of my fellow man is a no-brainer in certain situations. Car wrecks, burning buildings, and potential drownings are one thing. Firearms introduce a whole set of different rules. I gave up heroic dreams decades ago.

    Reading several gun forums over the years, I'm generally more apprehensive of sheepdogs than wolves.
    +1. Why is it when someone buys a gun, they feel they have an obligation to be a superhero? I am not a LEO, LEO wannabe, or a superhero.

    Debating this topic with examples of a child being assaulted or a woman being raped is like debating abortion and only citing rape or incest. It's a common debate tactic - bring out the extreme (and relatively rare) example, and use it as the basis for your argument.

    I, too, am more concerned about the self-appointed sheepdoggies than I am the wolves.

    I am retired military, my wife and I volunteer to help disadvantaged kids, we support Special Olympics financially and with our time, and we gave over $30K to charities last year.

    You want to be a sheepdog? Start there... That's a huge impact, and you don't even need to kill anyone.

  12. #71
    Ex Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMac View Post
    +1. Why is it when someone buys a gun, they feel they have an obligation to be a superhero? I am not a LEO, LEO wannabe, or a superhero.

    Debating this topic with examples of a child being assaulted or a woman being raped is like debating abortion and only citing rape or incest. It's a common debate tactic - bring out the extreme (and relatively rare) example, and use it as the basis for your argument.

    I, too, am more concerned about the self-appointed sheepdoggies than I am the wolves.

    I am retired military, my wife and I volunteer to help disadvantaged kids, we support Special Olympics financially and with our time, and we gave over $30K to charities last year.

    You want to be a sheepdog? Start there... That's a huge impact, and you don't even need to kill anyone.
    Finally, a perfect statement for this debate.

  13. #72
    Senior Member Array Divebum47's Avatar
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    1) Too many variables to answer any of the three questions.
    2) My first obligation is to may family, and that includes not burdening them financially by intervening in a situation where I don't have all the facts.
    3) We all make choices. I choose to do what I have to do to protect my family and loved one. Others may make other choices not to take that responsibility to the extent I do. With choices come consequences. If you choose not to carry a weapon, then the tacit choice is reduce your ability to protect yourself, family and loved ones. Why should I assume that responsibility because I choose to carry a firearm?

    Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is one definition of insanity. Why do so many people continue to depend upon a government which time and again has proven it's inability or unwillingness to protect us domestically?

    The answer, as far as I'm concerned is that it depends upon the circumstances. But the circumstances would have to be pretty drastic before I chose to intervene and put my family at risk. It has very, very little to do with personal risk and a lot to do with my family's ongoing protection. Those who choose to leave their family and self defense up to others have made choice they have to live with. I've made a choice I have to live with. For most practical purposes, I will intervene to the extent of dialing 911 and being a hell of a good witness.
    "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

  14. #73
    Senior Member Array Keltyke's Avatar
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    "self-sacrafice for the common good"
    That's a fine, flighty phrase that deserves to be in an epic novel - and probably is.

    Sacrifice for others is a good and noble cause, and SOMETIMES appropriate. It may get you written up in the local paper, or given an honorary dinner and speech or even some type of citizen's medal. It may also get you very dead.

    My FIRST and only REAL duty is to my wife and family, and anything that might prevent that is WAY down on the list. It's a fine thing to be honored posthumously for saving someone else while your widow tries to pay the mortgage and your children keep asking, "Where is Daddy?"

    I'm not a LEO or a soldier. I don't get paid to fight and protect. I truly admire those who do and we're all forever in their debt - but it ain't my job.

    IF I can help someone while assuring that
    I survive - I certainly will. Bottom line - I will come home to my family.

  15. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post

    Two years ago I had different views. Two years ago I would have said I would have gotten involved, but becoming a parent has done a lot to change my way of thinking.
    Many folk on this list would condemn "situational ethics" -- in all situations.

    FWIIW, I think that too many theologians and politicians have taken "situational ethics" far to far. Under the guise of various forms of Pragmatism, Relativism, Positivism, and Personalism, they have created a slippery slope of "situational ethics" by applying St Augustine of Hippo Regius view to far more mundane situations.

    That said, I find limatunes' comments hit home for me.

    What would have been right for me in the situation of a young single Marine vs. what would have been right for me in the situation of a father with a family to support vs. what is now right for me in the situation of a old man differ.

    Let's not cast aspersions or direct derogatory comments at others on this issues -- until we know what we would do after a few miles in their moccasins.
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  16. #75
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    Let's not cast aspersions or direct derogatory comments at others on this issues -- until we know what we would do after a few miles in their moccasins.
    Exactly so.

    In other words, I don't shave your face in my mirror, each day. And you don't have to explain to my family why I died in that action last week.

    Duty and Responsibility are incredibly deep, personal choices. It will always be so.

    Whatever else is true, it's a sign that we've made it through 70+ posts without anyone outright calling another a coward, for thinking through the reality of levels of commitment one is able to make. A couple years back, we couldn't say as much, as a group. We're maturing ... and that's a good thing.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
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