In defense of others - Page 7

In defense of others

This is a discussion on In defense of others within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by limatunes Adults have the same rights to defend themselves as I do and have the same responsibilities as well as the same ...

View Poll Results: Would you use your gun in defense of others?

Voters
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  • My gun is used only for me and family

    37 17.79%
  • I would defend a 3rd party if it was lawful

    163 78.37%
  • I would only defend a 3rd party if they were a child

    8 3.85%
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Thread: In defense of others

  1. #91
    Senior Member Array adaman04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    Adults have the same rights to defend themselves as I do and have the same responsibilities as well as the same capacity to understand as I do. It is their own fault they are unprepared. I have me and my own to look after and that sometimes means not getting involved.

    However, we (individually and as a society) put different restrictions on children. They are too young to understand, comprehend, fight or possess the means of self-defense.

    I would be willing to defend a child if at all possible.
    So Lima, if you walked out of a store from shopping and a man or woman of XX age was unconscious and getting their head stomped in to the pavement you wouldn't intervene?

    I think it's a lot easier for us to say what we would do from the comfort of our couch. There's nothing to say that person doesn't CCW themselves and were caught off guard. Sure we all maintain a min. of condition yellow 101% of the time, but are we never caught off guard?


  2. #92
    VIP Member Array First Sgt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pax View Post
    I cannot truthfully choose any of your poll choices
    The above line gives my view. With so many factors involved in making a decision to only defend family, or intervene in a 3rd party situation, it is simply foolish for me to try and give a definite answer to your poll. My signture line probably says it best for me. JMO
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

  3. #93
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    Adults have the same rights to defend themselves as I do and have the same responsibilities as well as the same capacity to understand as I do. It is their own fault they are unprepared. I have me and my own to look after and that sometimes means not getting involved.

    However, we (individually and as a society) put different restrictions on children. They are too young to understand, comprehend, fight or possess the means of self-defense.

    I would be willing to defend a child if at all possible.
    Agreed 100% ^^

    Outside of a forcible felony I very much doubt I would involve myself never mind make the action of deploying arms as on my person toward any persons be related to me or not.

    All else I've already decided long ago will be walked away from, and left to po-po/fire/EMT to resolve.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  4. #94
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adaman04 View Post
    ... if you walked out of a store from shopping and a man or woman of XX age was unconscious and getting their head stomped in to the pavement you wouldn't intervene?
    Absolutely not, unless I knew who the BG was and what halting the actions would accomplish.


    Quote Originally Posted by adaman04 View Post
    I think it's a lot easier for us to say what we would do from the comfort of our couch.
    Perhaps.

    But that has no bearing on whether a person has been through situations before. There are some of us who have had the benefit of going 'round the "dance floor," previously. Trust me: for those of us with such actual experience, it's never easy, and such things are never lightly said.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    But that has no bearing on whether a person has been through situations before. There are some of us who have had the benefit of going 'round the "dance floor," previously. Trust me: for those of us with such actual experience, it's never easy, and such things are never lightly said.
    Beat me to it.

    I was going to say, if this is your first rodeo...
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  6. #96
    Member Array Bart's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=MadMac;1434633]+1. Why is it when someone buys a gun, they feel they have an obligation to be a superhero? I am not a LEO, LEO wannabe, or a superhero.

    Debating this topic with examples of a child being assaulted or a woman being raped is like debating abortion and only citing rape or incest. It's a common debate tactic - bring out the extreme (and relatively rare) example, and use it as the basis for your argument.

    I, too, am more concerned about the self-appointed sheepdoggies than I am the wolves.
    _________________________________________________

    Carrying a gun is a PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY, unless the threat is PERSONAL, (family is personal) there is no threat. It's been said that, "when you're young you learn, when you're old you understand". I'm OLD, there's no getting around it. I learned a long time ago that the WORLD IS IMPARTIAL (society). The world doesn't give a rats ass about what's right or wrong anymore.

    There are just too many agendas in place today to discredit and destroy the inherited values and freedoms to not only protect ourselves and our families, but our nation as a whole. Doing the right thing, being brave, unselfish, sacrificing for others, etc., etc. will most likely cost you everything to defend. If you're willing to accept that then go for it, it's your choice. The vast majority of what was considered good when I was growing up is now considered evil; what was considered evil is now considered good. I understand today that my own personal life and the lives of my family members are the only lives that I will risk everything to protect. Morally, I also choose to protect the life of a stranger being presented the opportunity; however, the LAW has made that choice a burden too great, that I'm not willing to suffer.

  7. #97
    Member Array Steve O's Avatar
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    My gun is used only for me and family
    Amazing, so far 33 people admit they would let someone die because they weren't family.

    Ain't that kind of like saying your would never shoot a cute terrorist?

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by adaman04 View Post
    So Lima, if you walked out of a store from shopping and a man or woman of XX age was unconscious and getting their head stomped in to the pavement you wouldn't intervene?

    I think it's a lot easier for us to say what we would do from the comfort of our couch. There's nothing to say that person doesn't CCW themselves and were caught off guard. Sure we all maintain a min. of condition yellow 101% of the time, but are we never caught off guard?
    The short answer: If it was a child.. probably. If it was an adult.. probably not. Though, of course, we can never know for certain until we are faced with that situation.

    Let's look at it from a different angle.

    There was a thread recently about the security guard who tried to disarm the open carrier. Whether the story is completely true or not is still up for debate but let's say, for this example, that it's true and you are a bystander.

    You hear some commotion, look to your right and all you see is a man in civilian dress laying the beat down on a man in a security guard uniform. We all naturally assume that the guy in the uniform is the good guy and anyone beating on him is the bad guy and in this case you would be wrong. If you pulled out your firearm and "intervened" you'd be doing far more harm than good.

    So, in your scenario I'm coming out of the store and I see a man or woman getting stomped on. If I recognize that man as my pastor or my mother, sure, I may help because I know those people and I know their character. However, if that person is a stranger I have absolutely no idea whether that person just got caught trying to knife someone or whether they are in the middle of a drug war.

    Also, do I have my own child with me? What kind of a parent would I be if I put my child smack-dab in the middle of a very dangerous situation just because I felt sorry for a stranger who was getting stomped on.... who very well could have it coming to them.

    Am I supposed to grab the door greeter and tell him or her to hold my kid while I go try to save the day?

    All that being said I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT I WILL DO OR WON'T DO. I won't and can't know until I'm in those situations. But I know that I cannot say that I will charge in, bravado blazing, to be some kind of hero.

    Let's look at the same scenario...

    I come out of the store and I see someone getting their head stomped in, unconscious, on the pavement. I have my kid in the shopping cart and I push him to the side, draw my firearm or pull out my OC spray and I head in the direction of the assumed "bad guys" telling them to stop and step back.

    Because I'm charging into a situation that is completely unknown to me I am unaware that this is a dispute between thieves. I am also unaware that they have back up that is casually watching from the parking lot. Seeing that their "beat-down" is being fouled by a woman with a baby they decide to get involved by circling behind me and wrenching my kid out of the shopping cart, holding him hostage in exchange for letting their buddies go.

    Now I've gone from a concerned by-stander to a panic-stricken mother who has directly put her own son in danger.

    Now what do I do? Put my back to the original bad guys to try to negotiate the release of my son? Do I shoot and risk hitting him? Do I give up my firearm in exchange and watch as they commence the original beating?

    What a mess!

    Now let's say that, sure, it was a father of four who was distracted and someone blind-sided him after demanding his wallet. But, again, I have no idea if there are bad guys in the parking lot waiting and, upon seeing me intervene decide to intervene themselves with a spray of random bullets.

    Let's say that it's just two bad guys stomping some gal on the sidewalk. Let's say she even has a gun in her hand. Did she draw the gun in her defense or was she some jealous lover who is actually there to kill a cheating boyfriend?

    Let's say I come out and see a 10 year old kid being stomped on. Again, what am I supposed to do with my own kid? Every fiber in my body would want to assist him or her and I may say "consequences be darned" and run in to intervene, but what if.. WHAT IF.. the bad guy sees me coming, pulls out a gun and shoots a wild shot that hits and kills my child?

    Is that a risk I'm willing to take.. that you are willing to take?

    As I said, I cannot know what I'll do. No one can. Who's to say that I won't act anyway.. Who's to say that all of these people who say they couldn't NOT help wouldn't just stand there shell-shocked until it's over and then still feel guilty for not doing anything.

    We cannot know.

    The high likelihood is that by the time I get done scanning for further threats, calling the authorities, judging the situation dispassionately, weighing the risks and deciding the best course of action, it may be over and all I have left is to give the authorities my statement.

    To me, it's all a matter or risk management and what risks I am willing to take.

  9. #99
    Member Array deadhawg's Avatar
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    I can't vote in this poll, the simple choices given don't take into account all the variables possible.

    Lima's comments closely echo my own thoughts though.

    Observing an altercation between two strangers it may be very difficult to tell who is the "good guy" and who is the "bad guy". First impressions can be wrong.

    Maybe the little guy assaulted the linebacker's daughter.

    Maybe it's a drug deal gone bad, maybe it would be best if they just took each other out of the gene pool.

    I will not say I would never get involved, but I would have to be very, very sure of what I was seeing before I would consider deadly force. My CCW does not make me a cop, or Rambo, or make me a mind reader. My weapon is not my only tool. It's a tool of last resort.

    There could be situations where a couple warning shots (in a safe direction) might be appropriate.

    If I thought a child was being attacked or abducted I would be much more inclined to get involved, but what if little johnny is just having a tantrum and daddy is trying to take him home? How can you be sure?

    Be a good witness and get license numbers, discriptions, and call 911, maybe even follow while on the phone to LEO's.
    How a politician stands on the Second Amendment tells you how he or she views you as an individual; as a trustworthy & productive citizen, or as part of an unruly crowd that needs to be lorded over, controlled, supervised and taken care of.
    Suzanna Hupp

  10. #100
    Member Array LethalStang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Absolutely not, unless I knew who the BG was and what halting the actions would accomplish.
    That's just sad, I cant believe you'd be more concerned about yourself than helping an obvious woman in severe distress. What has this society come too......
    Quote Originally Posted by rottkeeper View Post
    If you are living your life worried about being a victim all the time and not enjoying life to the fullest, you are already a victim...
    -You don't know what you don't see-

    1*

    NRA Member

  11. #101
    Member Array micahsrad's Avatar
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    Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by rottkeeper View Post
    Why do you feel the need to make multiple posts quoting someone and not come out with what's on your mind?

    Answer: You are trying to twist words to make an ambiguous point while flaming the author of those posts....
    -

    The OP asked what would you do.... Not criticize what others would do.


    I can only think it makes you feel better to denigrate others to push your views.
    I will Try and answer these quotes in order:
    -It is impossible to twist or flame ones words when using a direct quote from the original author.
    -In these high stress situations know one knows exactly what they will do or how they will perform. That is the reason that I did not explain.
    -It is hypocritical to criticize one that you have chastised for criticizing another. I also did not push any views as none were stated.
    -Sir, In the end I am sorry if anyone took offense to the quotes that I published but as stated before they were another authors quotes not mine.

  12. #102
    Ex Member Array F350's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    Adults have the same rights to defend themselves as I do and have the same responsibilities as well as the same capacity to understand as I do. It is their own fault they are unprepared. I have me and my own to look after and that sometimes means not getting involved.
    I use to ride on patrol with a sheriff's deputy buddy; I was riding when we got the call to go to a rural residence where a hysterical young woman had shown up beaten and naked.

    I sat through the initial interview where she described being grabbed in the mall parking lot as she left after work; taken to a dead end road where she was beaten, raped and sexually tortured by 5 men for several hours.

    I don't think I am capable of standing by if I saw another young woman being dragged into a van.

    All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing (not exact quote but it gets my point across)

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by LethalStang View Post
    I think some people here have taken the term self-defense to a form of selfish-defense when it should be selfless-defense. Just sayin ....
    Who are you ... Webster? When did you get to make up the meaning of words?

    Self-defense means just what it says -- defense of self. NOT, selfless-defense. That's your own special interpretation...not a "should be".

    Frankly, my priorities are myself and others I extend the protection of "self" to -- basically, my immediate and extended family. If you are a friend, neighbor, etc. that I know and are in trouble, generally that protection is also extended to you. But to a stranger, under unknown circumstances, when I'm increasing the risk to my family -- no way. And I resent your attitude, LethalStang, and condemnation of my beliefs. Don't judge me and I won't judge you.

  14. #104
    Member Array alnitak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    I don't think I am capable of standing by if I saw another young woman being dragged into a van.

    All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing (not exact quote but it gets my point across)
    I agree, and I hope that if I saw such a crime being committed, I would find some way to intervene and stop it.

    But as CorneredCat said in her article, calling 911, being a good witness, trying to block the vehicle, etc. are all also other actions one can take without drawing a weapon. None of those reponses are "doing nothing."

  15. #105
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    I would, and I hope if the tables were reversed, someone would help me. I would make a terrible bystander.

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