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Would you use your gun in defense of others?

  • My gun is used only for me and family

    Votes: 37 17.8%
  • I would defend a 3rd party if it was lawful

    Votes: 163 78.4%
  • I would only defend a 3rd party if they were a child

    Votes: 8 3.8%
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In defense of others

9K views 126 replies 70 participants last post by  JD 
#1 ·
Using the "reasonable person" logic, are you willing to use your CCW or OC weapon in defense of others if you are watching a crime happen or unfold that would justify the use of a gun.

I don't want to hear you opinion on how foolish you think someone elses stand is, you can say why you would do what you would, but DON'T degrade others opinions on their course of action.

I would like to know what % of the forum members here would do what, so vote in the pole that comes closest to your beliefs.

Z
 
#106 ·
All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing (not exact quote but it gets my point across)
Calling the police isn't "doing nothing." Writing down license plate numbers isn't "doing nothing." Shepherding others to a safe haven is not "doing nothing." Watchfully being prepared to act if the situation escalates is not "doing nothing." Testifying in court and identifying the criminal to the authorities is not "doing nothing."

There are many actions a good and honorable person might take that do not require the use of a firearm, and those actions are not "doing nothing."

Only doing nothing is doing nothing.

pax
 
#107 ·
We each must live with ourselves and what we would do. I can't say someone elses view is better then mine or worse, it's just theirs.
 
#108 ·
I'm in complete agreement with limatunes' philosophy.

I have been involved in three "interventions" over the years (none involving lethal force) and have the scars from two of them as constant reminders. It's going to be a VERY dire, and clear cut, situation for me to physically do so again, especially if it involves the use of lethal force.

If this seems cowardly or unfeeling to some of the membership here, that's their problem, not mine. I am under no obligation to please anyone but myself and my family with my decision(s).
 
#111 ·
3rd party defense

I would for sure do everything I can to stop a crime presuming that my family was not with me or I thought police were to far away. I myself am a LEO. I am expected to get involved. But I also believe in the saying. All that is needed for evil to prevail, is for good people to do nothing.
 
#114 ·
Limatunes is the smartest mod on this site and there is nothing I could add to her post so
Plus1 and i'm done
 
#115 ·
Everyone here who is so concerned and worried about consequenses just doesnt get what im saying. Act now and worry about the consequenses later because if you wait the exact person in danger may be dead.
There is a strong possibility that you might kill the wrong person when you jump in without concern for the consequences.

Those who intend to jump in, no matter what, without any concern for possible consequences and without taking time to think should at least get some training. After all, if it's a clean kill, at least the innocent person won't suffer for long when you shoot them in error.

*shudder*

Seriously, guys. Don't get too tangled up in assigning malignant and malevolent motives to people who don't agree with you on this one. Not everyone who sounds a note of caution here is a pansy or a coward; not everyone who says they'll jump in is a fool or a braggart.

Those who say they'll jump in are nearly all honorable, upstanding people -- even the ones who come across as Mighty Mouse, even the ones who clearly have just barely begun to think about such issues, even the ones who are a bit abrasive in their opinions.

Similarly, those who say they'll take care of their duties and responsibilities to their own families first are also honorable and upstanding people -- even the ones who frame it in terms that cause others to cringe.

As for me, my only point is that whatever you decide to do, you'd dirty-word better

1) understand exactly what is happening, and
2) be physically able to carry it off.

pax
 
#116 ·
There is a strong possibility that you might kill the wrong person when you jump in without concern for the consequences.
Nah, don't you know you're talking to the elite "sheepdog squad" they'd never do anything like that
 
#118 ·
Your label, not mine. I also said ealier that i would not go in guns brandished and blazing, i would go in looking to stop the attack with whatever means necessary, be my hands, stick, or gun. I think some people here cant stand up for themselves and what they believe in so they ride the wagon with everyone else so they dont get ridiculed in a public forum. I will not "play it safe" in terms of helping someone because im worried i might offend a jury and do a little time. Bigger people are watching us everyday than anybody here on this site.
 
#120 ·
**********warning**********

The OP asked that this thread not be a debate on one person's choice versus another person's choice. It has become that at this time.

Several people involved in this thread are dangerously close or have crossed the line in violating the forum rule prohibiting personal attacks. I am currently evaluating with staff what actions will be taken.

It gets back on track or it gets closed.
 
#122 ·
LethalStang said:
I also said ealier that i would not go in guns brandished and blazing, i would go in looking to stop the attack with whatever means necessary, be my hands, stick, or gun.
That's good, if you've understood what's going on before you rush in.

On the other hand, it's fairly common that when LEOs arrive on the scene of a confrontation, they often apprehend the wrong person and sometimes shoot the wrong person. They do this not because they are fools, but because they are not omniscient -- that is, they don't know everything when they first arrive on scene. If they did not see the situation begin, if they do not know the players involved, if they did not see what led up to the confrontation, it is not at all unlikely that they will confront, apprehend, or shoot the wrong person.

Whether it's done by a cop or by a regular citizen, attacking the wrong person is a tragedy. It isn't something to take lightly. It isn't something to blow off with the presumption that even though others in the past might make such a mistake, nobody like us would ever do that.

It is rather a cold shower of a wake up call, the sort of thing that sends shivers down the spine of any thoughtful and compassionate person -- especially one who believes in saving innocent life and protecting the helpless.

Spend a little time with a search engine and you'll discover that there are a lot of smart, compassionate, courageous people who killed the wrong person (or simply shot the wrong person, or arrested the wrong person, or tackled the wrong person) in part because they simply could not bring themselves to fully believe that this sort of thing could in fact happen to them. And the people around them -- people they meant to save! -- paid dearly for their mistake.

By the way, I'm not talking about the sort of mistake where the good guy misses his intended target and strikes a bystander. I'm talking about the sort of mistake where the good guy simply does not know the backstory, and makes an assumption about what is going on. For instance

  • a beautiful, nicely-dressed young lady wrestling with a scruffy looking male while she screams, "HELP! RAPE!!!" Clear cut? Maybe. Or maybe he's a plainclothes vice squad cop arresting a high end hooker.

  • a large man standing behind the counter at a stop-n-rob, holding a gun pointed at a bloody, sobbing person lying on the floor at his feet. Clear cut? Maybe. Or maybe the guy with the gun is a good citizen just like you, who intervened to save the clerk's life from an attacker, and the sobbing person at his feet was in fact the attacker.

  • a child struggling against an adult male, screaming "You're NOT my daddy!" as the man tries to stuff the child into a vehicle. Clear cut? Maybe. Or maybe it's the kid's stepdad, and the kid is simply having a melt down for some other reason.

In every one of these situations, a decent, honorable, courageous person with a firearm would be tempted to intervene to "stop the aggressor." And in every one of them, a reasonable and prudent person would make certain assumptions about who the aggressor actually is. And in every one of them, there's a chance that a truly innocent person will be badly injured or killed if that good samaritan gets the backstory wrong.

I think some people here cant stand up for themselves and what they believe in so they ride the wagon with everyone else so they dont get ridiculed in a public forum.
And there it is again. There are good people on both sides of this discussion, and I do believe personal attacks are against forum rules here anyway.

I will not "play it safe" in terms of helping someone because im worried i might offend a jury and do a little time.
Offending a jury isn't the worry. Killing the wrong person is the concern.

But you knew that. :)

pax
 
#124 ·
That's good, if you've understood what's going on before you rush in.

On the other hand, it's fairly common that when LEOs arrive on the scene of a confrontation, they often apprehend the wrong person and sometimes shoot the wrong person. They do this not because they are fools, but because they are not omniscient -- that is, they don't know everything when they first arrive on scene. If they did not see the situation begin, if they do not know the players involved, if they did not see what led up to the confrontation, it is not at all unlikely that they will confront, apprehend, or shoot the wrong person.

Whether it's done by a cop or by a regular citizen, attacking the wrong person is a tragedy. It isn't something to take lightly. It isn't something to blow off with the presumption that even though others in the past might make such a mistake, nobody like us would ever do that.

It is rather a cold shower of a wake up call, the sort of thing that sends shivers down the spine of any thoughtful and compassionate person -- especially one who believes in saving innocent life and protecting the helpless.

Spend a little time with a search engine and you'll discover that there are a lot of smart, compassionate, courageous people who killed the wrong person (or simply shot the wrong person, or arrested the wrong person, or tackled the wrong person) in part because they simply could not bring themselves to fully believe that this sort of thing could in fact happen to them. And the people around them -- people they meant to save! -- paid dearly for their mistake.

By the way, I'm not talking about the sort of mistake where the good guy misses his intended target and strikes a bystander. I'm talking about the sort of mistake where the good guy simply does not know the backstory, and makes an assumption about what is going on. For instance

  • a beautiful, nicely-dressed young lady wrestling with a scruffy looking male while she screams, "HELP! RAPE!!!" Clear cut? Maybe. Or maybe he's a plainclothes vice squad cop arresting a high end hooker.

  • a large man standing behind the counter at a stop-n-rob, holding a gun pointed at a bloody, sobbing person lying on the floor at his feet. Clear cut? Maybe. Or maybe the guy with the gun is a good citizen just like you, who intervened to save the clerk's life from an attacker, and the sobbing person at his feet was in fact the attacker.

  • a child struggling against an adult male, screaming "You're NOT my daddy!" as the man tries to stuff the child into a vehicle. Clear cut? Maybe. Or maybe it's the kid's stepdad, and the kid is simply having a melt down for some other reason.

In every one of these situations, a decent, honorable, courageous person with a firearm would be tempted to intervene to "stop the aggressor." And in every one of them, a reasonable and prudent person would make certain assumptions about who the aggressor actually is. And in every one of them, there's a chance that a truly innocent person will be badly injured or killed if that good samaritan gets the backstory wrong.



And there it is again. There are good people on both sides of this discussion, and I do believe personal attacks are against forum rules here anyway.



Offending a jury isn't the worry. Killing the wrong person is the concern.

But you knew that. :)

pax
You have made the most understandable post on here to contradict what ive been saying and i respect that. I also respect everyones opinions on here, however misguided they may be....(j/k, saw that phrase on a movie somewhere):smile: Seriously, im done arguing about this because we'll just end up in the same spot and possibly offended someone along the way. Keep carrying and do what you gotta do out there on the street.
 
#123 ·
I have been asked to elucidate my position on this subject beyond simply stating the LT (and now PAX) has nailed it. So, here goes.

First I am, again, convinced that a large percentage (please note I did not say all or even most) of participants in this forum have a hero complex and can not wait to deploy their handgun and be a “sheepdog” (your label not mine).

I also believe that if the stars and gods all align and any of you ever get your one in a million shot at a defensive shooting, you had better pray that it isn’t even a little bit shaky or the DA isn’t up for re-election because he/she is going to crawl up your sigmoid colon W/ a microscope and when he/she finds your thousand plus posts here detailing your “obligation to protect the flock” and your intent to “go in guns blazing and shoot to kill” He’s going to paint you as “The Brave One” ( and he’d be spot on W/some of you) and throw your behind under the jail.

I carry a gun for my own self defense. I am not obligated to intervene in your troubles I am certainly not obligated to endanger myself physically, legally or financially to do so and I won’t.
 
#125 ·
a beautiful, nicely-dressed young lady wrestling with a scruffy looking male while she screams, "HELP! RAPE!!!" Clear cut? Maybe. Or maybe he's a plainclothes vice squad cop arresting a high end hooker.
Actually happened in Texas, hubby came home and caught DW making out W/ boyfriend. DW screamed "RAPE" and hubby shot and killed the wrong guy. DW went to jail and alll for a peice of tail
 
#126 ·
My firearm will be used to defend me and my personal loved ones and no one else. Getting involved in some else's personal problems is a good way to end up in court and spend all of your resources 2,3 or 4 years down the road and be found not guilty and BROKE and out of several hundred thousand dollars. All of my finances has come honestly and I don't intend on losing it over my foolishness or the foolishness of others because when you get involved in someone's else's personal mess you don't know what precipated the invent or how it is going to end. Remember, prisons are the fastest growing industry in the country and they are not being built just for beautification of the landscape.
 
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