Shoot or Don't? - Page 2

Shoot or Don't?

This is a discussion on Shoot or Don't? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by SIXTO Lets set aside the duty of a CCW just for a minute; You guys are telling me that there is an ...

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Thread: Shoot or Don't?

  1. #16
    Senior Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Lets set aside the duty of a CCW just for a minute;

    You guys are telling me that there is an active shooter (that mean he is actively shooting people) and you will not put him down due to backstop issues? Seriously?
    You'll allow this guy to continue to kill people because you don't have a suitable backstop? A situation like this is not a range exercise. Its real world.

    I'm not saying one should spray and pray, but this is a no win; risks will have to be taken to stop an active shooter. The only thing that's going to do it is an aggressive response.
    It's a big poo sandwich for sure. You're damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

    I'd engage. He's actively shooting people, and must be stopped.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array goldshellback's Avatar
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    It's my opinion if i was the target (or in iminate danger of being targeted) of some yahoo's bullet spraying, I'm probley shooting back.
    An active shooter MUST be stoped and I'm not gonna think about backgrounds, overpenetration, or ballistics.

    I don't EVER wanna find that out about myself though.
    "Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008

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  3. #18
    Distinguished Member Array Black Knight's Avatar
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    My opinion is that your first responsibility is to get your family and yourself out of harms way. Everything else is thirdly. Now if the active shooter prevents you from getting out of harms way you may need to remove the threat. Remember responding law enforcement will not be able to tell you from the actual threat and will respond accordingly. Until all potential threats are taken care of you will be treated the same as the actual threat. Do not refuse to obey the responding officers instructions. They are trained to remove armed threats that continue being threats and an unknown person with a gun in his hand is looked at as a threat. After everything is over then you can assert your innocent victim status. There have been many undercover officers shot by not responding to the instructions of responding uniformed officers. It is just as easy to mistake the legally armed citizen for the active shooter as it is a plain clothes or undercover officer.

  4. #19
    VIP Member Array JimmyC4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Lets set aside the duty of a CCW just for a minute;

    You guys are telling me that there is an active shooter (that mean he is actively shooting people) and you will not put him down due to backstop issues? Seriously?
    You'll allow this guy to continue to kill people because you don't have a suitable backstop? A situation like this is not a range exercise. Its real world.

    I'm not saying one should spray and pray, but this is a no win; risks will have to be taken to stop an active shooter. The only thing that's going to do it is an aggressive response.
    Exactly the words I was searching for as I go through this thread...it's a combat situation.
    "It's a big gun when I carry it, it is also a big gun when I take it out” – Clint Smith

  5. #20
    Member Array aric's Avatar
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    With a handgun I still have the option to run or find cover. The handgun is an option when run for cover isn't working. To be honest, I don't carry the hardware for a prolonged firefight with a mass shooter, even on the occasion I have the 1911 and not the .38.

  6. #21
    Senior Member Array BRTCP88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xsigma40cal View Post
    As for the BG being surrounded by the cops, drawing is the last thing you want to do. I mean c'mon theyre police, theyre trained to take down BG's, so let them do their jobs and dont play hero.
    I don't want to play hero. I was thinking about a scenario where the cops couldn't act (they don't want to escalate the situation or maybe he's got the building barricaded and they're trying to gain entry) and the guy was threat to YOU. I should have specified. I know this isn't a very likely situation, but I was just wanting to start a discussion so that I could hear the opinions of people who've thought of this a lot more than I have.
    Ron Paul 2012

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  7. #22
    Member Array doubtful's Avatar
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    Bottom line is that it's not my job to start a gunfight in a public place. If the situation is such that my family or myself is in imminent danger, or the BG starts shooting at anyone else then all bets are off. If John Q. Public is in danger but it looks as if the situation will end without bloodshed (will the BGs just take the cash from the register and run?) then I like to think I'd have the presence of mind to not act too rashly. But there are a million permutations of any scenario you can dream up, and while this is a valuable discussion it is so frought with possibilities that who can say what you would do? Set some realistic and responsible ground rules for yourself and try to live by them should a really bad situation develop.

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array tns0038's Avatar
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    Not being an LEO and carrying via CCL you have no obligations to use your sidearm. Only draw it if you feel that your loved one or you are in immediate life threaten danger. Period, no exceptions…

    Like an LEO you are responsible for each bullet you fire, until it comes to rest. So unlike a BG who can “spray and pray” you have to place each bullet precisely, while taking into consideration backstops and bystanders.

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    "not acting would allow the gunman to continue on his rampage and probably take out you" - I'm not going to allow someone to shot me. Sorry to the folks beyond the creep but if he is coming after me I will do my best to take him out without hurting anyone else, but I will take him out.
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

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  10. #25
    Member Array PaxMentis's Avatar
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    IF he is shooting people, and

    IF LEOs are not present, and

    IF I can get a clear shot (and I will work to do so),

    THEN I will shoot.

  11. #26
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    Concur with the idea that you have no legal obligation to defend others. I think I have a moral obligation to act if capable.

    Consider backstop options, at least something to slow it down. Since I use hollow points specifically to reduce the risk of overpenetration, I think I'd engage when able.

    To help reduce the risk of hitting innocents, consider an upward or downward angle. Sometimes just taking a knee can give enough upward angle to *reduce* the chance of through and through bullet striking anyone on the other side with enough velocity to do serious damage. At other times being able to engage from a slightly higher elevation can put the bullet in the ground (even if it ricochets it will lose a lot of velocity in the process).

    Of course the actual circumstances will always come into play regarding proximity of family, direction of shooter, availability of cover, etc.

    JM2CW
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  12. #27
    VIP Member Array JonInNY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRTCP88 View Post
    OK, let's say you're the next target for the BG.
    Then I let loose.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch; Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
    -- Benjamin Franklin

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonInNY View Post
    I probably would not shoot, unless my own life (or family member) was in immenent danger. If I were to miss, or kill someone in the process, I would probably be charged with the killing, and even if aquitted, would face civil suits. My life would be ruined.

    My responsibility as a CCW citizen, is to protect myself and family, and not to be a LEO. I know that sounds cold and callous, but that's the responsibility we take when we decide to CCW. My 2 cents.
    Your 2 cents matches my 2 cents to the penny.

  14. #29
    VIP Member Array JonInNY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Lets set aside the duty of a CCW just for a minute;

    You guys are telling me that there is an active shooter (that mean he is actively shooting people) and you will not put him down due to backstop issues? Seriously?
    You'll allow this guy to continue to kill people because you don't have a suitable backstop? A situation like this is not a range exercise. Its real world.

    I'm not saying one should spray and pray, but this is a no win; risks will have to be taken to stop an active shooter. The only thing that's going to do it is an aggressive response.

    I understand where you're coming from SIXTO, and without living the situation, I don't know for sure what I would do.... but what if I miss and kill an innocent bystander? Am I not then just as guilty? There may not be a good answer to this hypothetical question.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch; Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
    -- Benjamin Franklin

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonInNY View Post
    I understand where you're coming from SIXTO, and without living the situation, I don't know for sure what I would do.... but what if I miss and kill an innocent bystander? Am I not then just as guilty? There may not be a good answer to this hypothetical question.
    What if you do miss? What culpable state of crime would you be charged with? Reckless, maybe. I'd take that.

    What if you do nothing and the rampage continues killing 20?

    You are right though, there are no easy answers to this one. Each situation will be a lot different than the next. Until a real life scenario presents itself, we will never know what we actually will do.
    "Just blame Sixto"

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