Shoot or Don't? - Page 3

Shoot or Don't?

This is a discussion on Shoot or Don't? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; My shooting buddy/instructor and I just talked about a similar scenario last week. Our scenario was an active shooter in our church. We pack the ...

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  1. #31
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    My shooting buddy/instructor and I just talked about a similar scenario last week. Our scenario was an active shooter in our church. We pack the place on Sundays and just like Disney it would be NUTS if someone started shooting. We never did come up with anything solid. The situation is definitely a big poo sandwich.

    The best we could come up with was to close on the shooter as much as possible in the mass confusion. Then go hands on or shoot him at very close range which ever is viable at the time. This assumes he doesn't kill you during your approach.
    I haven’t heard any of the journalists who volunteered to be waterboarded asking to have their fingernails wrenched out with pliers, or electrodes attached to their genitals.


  2. #32
    Distinguished Member Array Guardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    What if you do miss? What culpable state of crime would you be charged with? Reckless, maybe. I'd take that.

    What if you do nothing and the rampage continues killing 20?

    You are right though, there are no easy answers to this one. Each situation will be a lot different than the next. Until a real life scenario presents itself, we will never know what we actually will do.
    Do most states have the Good Samaritan Law?? Not saying it would cover this, but it would be interesting to throw that into the mix also and add that in on the defense side.

    Just some information I gathered, not legal advice, just some info.

    Here are some good tips for staying out of court:

    •Follow your training
    •Use common sense
    •Don't do anything you're not trained to do
    •Get professional help for the victim
    •Do not accept gifts or rewards
    Good Samaritan laws do not protect you from everything. It is human nature to make mistakes. Good Samaritan laws take this into account and protect helpful citizens if the mistakes made are reasonable.

    Since defining "reasonable" is so difficult -- even those covered under the good Samaritan law may find themselves defending a lawsuit. Luckily, most lawyers make judgments about when to file lawsuits based on an examination of their return on investment. Since the plaintiff doesn't usually pay up front, the lawyer must decide to take the case on contingency. That means "reasonable" is defined by the lawyer. Believe it or not, that's good. It means those lawsuits that will most likely lose in court won't ever get there.
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

  3. #33
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    I dont think good sam laws would apply here. Maybe they could, but I don't really want to be the test case.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  4. #34
    Member Array pir8te's Avatar
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    The church shooting has happened and a CCW / volunteer security guard put an end to it

    Vanquisher of Colorado church gunman lauded - latimes.com

    Vanquisher of Colorado church gunman lauded

    By Nicholas Riccardi and DeeDee Correll

    Los Angeles Times Staff Writers

    8:37 PM PST, December 10, 2007

    COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo.

    The gunshots were so loud that Jeanne Assam thought the shooter already was in the building.

    A former police officer, Assam, 42, was on security duty Sunday morning at New Life Church here. Hours earlier, a 24-year-old who had been rejected from a missionary school in a Denver suburb had shot and killed two staffers there. Now he was spraying New Life's parking lot with gunfire and pushing through the doors to the sanctuary.

    Assam hid and inched toward the gunman, Matthew Murray, as dozens of terrified worshippers fled. She waited until he got close enough, revealed herself, aimed her pistol and fired. Murray dropped to the ground. He was carrying an assault rifle, two pistols and a backpack holding more than 1,000 rounds of ammunition.

    "I just prayed to the Holy Spirit to guide me," Assam said at a packed news conference Monday. "I give the credit to God. This has got to be God, because of the firepower he had versus what I have."

    Authorities Monday said Assam saved untold lives as they described how Murray, the homeschooled son of a prominent neurologist, terrorized two religious institutions during a harrowing 12-hour spree.

    Police said it was unclear whether Assam's shots killed Murray or whether the gunman, after being wounded, took his own life.

    Murray killed two teenage sisters at New Life Church on Sunday afternoon and wounded their father and two other worshippers. The gunman had been at large since 12:30 a.m., when he attacked the Youth With a Mission academy in Arvada.

    Phil Abeyta, a pastor who is Murray's uncle, spoke to reporters outside the school Monday afternoon.

    "Our family can't express the magnitude of our grief for the victims and families," Abeyta said tearfully. "On behalf of our family, we ask for forgiveness. We can't understand why this has happened."

    At Abeyta's side was Peter Warren, the school's director. Warren said that when Murray came to the school early Sunday asking to stay the night, staff members did not recognize him. After Murray was identified by police, the school realized he had attended its training program in 2002. The Arvada school is a branch of an international missionary program that trains thousands annually.

    Warren said school officials refused to assign Murray to a mission because of an unspecified health problem that could make such work "unsafe." Warren would not elaborate, and he and Abeyta left without taking questions.

    Police said it appeared Murray acted alone, although they were still investigating whether he had help getting from Arvada to Colorado Springs.

    In court papers, police said Murray had written threatening letters to the school and spent many hours a day as a computer student, the Gazette of Colorado Springs reported.

    He lived with his 21-year-old brother and his parents in a two-story brick home in an affluent neighborhood in Englewood, a suburb at the southern end of Denver's sprawl. His father, Ronald Murray, is a neurologist who specializes in treating multiple sclerosis.

    Sgt. Jeff Jensen said it was too early to know what precisely motivated Matthew Murray. "This tragedy is just a little over 24 hours old and we're still in the process of gathering information," he said at an afternoon news conference.

    It was also unclear why Murray traveled the roughly 75 miles from the missionary school in Arvada to New Life Church. New Life has a branch office of Youth With a Mission and also achieved notoriety last year when its founder, Ted Haggard, was accused by a former gay prostitute of trading drugs and sex.

    Murray apparently left smoke grenades as distractions at the western and southeastern entrances to New Life. Then he moved to the eastern parking lot and opened fire, hitting the Works family of Denver.

    Stephanie Works, 18, died at the scene; her sister Rachel, 16, died in a hospital hours later. Their father, David, 51, was wounded in the groin and abdomen and was in fair condition Monday.

    Jensen said it was unknown if Murray targeted the Works girls, who reportedly had gone on a Youth With a Mission trip overseas and frequented the group's Arvada branch.

    Early Sunday morning, New Life's security director had warned senior pastor Brady Boyd about the missionary school attacks and recommended bolstering the campus' volunteer contingent of guards. At her home, Assam read about the shooting online and felt a chill.

    A worshipper at the church, she also protects fellow parishioners and Boyd. She was working her regular shift Sunday afternoon. There were about 7,000 people on campus as the midday service wound to a close about 1:10 p.m. and Murray opened fire.

    "I heard shots fired. There was chaos, there were a lot of people in the church," Assam said. "The shots were so loud I thought he was inside. ... It seemed like the halls cleared out, I saw him coming through the doors."

    Assam said she hid until he came close. "I came out of cover, identified myself and took him down," she said. "I just knew I was not going to wait for him to do any more damage."

    She said she prayed before opening fire. "My hand wasn't even shaking," she said. "It seemed like it was me, the gunman and God."

    Boyd, who introduced Assam, stressed that all church guards are volunteers who worship at the church and are legally allowed to carry guns.

    "Given the events of the past 24 hours, you understand why there is a need to provide security to the people who worship there," Boyd said.

    Riccardi reported from Colorado Springs and Correll from Arvada.

    Copyright © 2010, The Los Angeles Times

    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    My shooting buddy/instructor and I just talked about a similar scenario last week. Our scenario was an active shooter in our church. We pack the place on Sundays and just like Disney it would be NUTS if someone started shooting. We never did come up with anything solid. The situation is definitely a big poo sandwich.

    The best we could come up with was to close on the shooter as much as possible in the mass confusion. Then go hands on or shoot him at very close range which ever is viable at the time. This assumes he doesn't kill you during your approach.
    Steve

    Life member

  5. #35
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    I am fully aware of the Colorado and multiple other church shootings. I have no idea how the church layout and shooting circumstances would be similar to my church (or to the OPs Disney scenario). Every scenario is different and you would be making up a plan as you go. The point of my post is that during the active shooter in crowded place scenario there is no really good (safe) plan. You are very likely going to get crapped on. My line of thinking is to stop the shooter as fast as possible by any means available or die trying.

    The woman in Colorado was very brave and, perhaps, very lucky to survive. IMO she did the right thing. Attack!

    In this type situation I think the best plans are the simplest. To quote the great British Admiral Lord Nelson "Go straight at them!".
    I haven’t heard any of the journalists who volunteered to be waterboarded asking to have their fingernails wrenched out with pliers, or electrodes attached to their genitals.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Lets set aside the duty of a CCW just for a minute;

    You guys are telling me that there is an active shooter (that mean he is actively shooting people) and you will not put him down due to backstop issues? Seriously?
    You'll allow this guy to continue to kill people because you don't have a suitable backstop? A situation like this is not a range exercise. Its real world.

    I'm not saying one should spray and pray, but this is a no win; risks will have to be taken to stop an active shooter. The only thing that's going to do it is an aggressive response.

    Got to agree with Sixto on this, shooting from a kneeling position would angle my shots up which decreases the likelyhood of hitting a bystander. Plus in an active shooter situation, I have to think that ALL the bystanders are already going to be down on the ground, this just seems to be the ingrained reaction to gun fire, hit the ground. The only person standing is most likely the shooter.

  7. #37
    Member Array Ticman's Avatar
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    I think the kneeling position would be good as well. Most people do hit the ground when shots are fired.

    It would be great if the active shooter was held responsible for all the rounds fired. CCW, police or his own. You wouldn't be shooting if the BG wasn't shooting first. (Makes sense to me LOL!!)

    It's like some states that charge the accomplice with murder when a home owners kills one of the BG's that broke into their home.

  8. #38
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    I am a retired deputy sheriff with 30 years on the job and I would not even try to answer that question. First there are too many variables to try and do so. Second I was told Disney World prohibits firearms on their property. Third if it is a bank robber surrounded by police, stay out of it, let the police handle it.

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