CC permit holders as air marshals

This is a discussion on CC permit holders as air marshals within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by BigStick How about one step further, if they created a class/certification program with deputy air marshal (specifically for purpose of security on ...

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Thread: CC permit holders as air marshals

  1. #16
    Member Array ItsMyRight2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigStick View Post
    How about one step further, if they created a class/certification program with deputy air marshal (specifically for purpose of security on a plane with no other duties or responsibilites). I think there are plenty of us in the CC community who would be willing to go through the hastle and jump through the hoops to be able to protect ourselves on airplanes.
    +1
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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array rammerjammer's Avatar
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    Will never happen. It would create more problems than it could probably solve.

  4. #18
    Member Array ItsMyRight2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rammerjammer View Post
    Will never happen. It would create more problems than it could probably solve.
    I agree but we can dream can't we.lol
    When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.
    The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
    - Thomas Jefferson

  5. #19
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    I like the way the Israeli's do things. If there is one thing they do right, its security.

    Anyway, for the idea of letting any joker with a weekend ccw class under his belt carry in a aluminum tube thousands of feet in the air with hundreds of lives in his hands... no thanks.
    There is a whole lot more to the job at hand than strapping a gun on. Last I heard, bringing a gun to a bomb fight is kinda like bringing a knife to a gun fight; it's winnable, but you better be damn sure you know what you're doing.

    I know I'll catch a little heat from this, but oh well, Flame on flamers.
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  6. #20
    Member Array HKP30's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryM View Post
    First it will never happen.
    Second it is not a good idea in my view.

    Regards,
    Jerry
    I actually agree with this statement.

    Citizens who have not gotten into trouble with the law are allowed to purchase and own firearms.

    In many states, if you can purchase a firearm, you are unlikely to be prevented from applying for, and being issued a license to carry.

    A large number of those states that "Shall Issue" do not have a training requirement. Most of the ones that do have a rather pathetic training requirement.

    A License to carry a firearm does not automatically mean the person carrying it is competent in using their firearm. Deputizing people simply because they have the license does indeed sound like a bad idea to me.

    Now, If the air-marshals wanted to put on regional close quarters, defensive firearms training classes, and require quarterly/bi-annual/annual refreshers to be deputized, including a legal course in what IS and ISN'T appropriate. I'd be all for it.
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  7. #21
    Member Array tapout1003's Avatar
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    No i'm sorry I don't believe it's a good idea. The level of training required in most states is not enough to do the job. I personally am scared by some of the people I meet who pass the class.

    I myself have made the mistake thinking that most CCW holders are as responsible as those here on the forum. The sad fact is that most aren't.
    "When you reload in low light encounters, don't put your flashlight in
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  8. #22
    Member Array HUSTLEnomics's Avatar
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    I just dont like the idea of assuming that because someone can rate as master marksman that they will perform that way under the pressure of possible hostage situation. Thousands of feet above ground if a shot is taken, misses its target, and causes the plane to open up like a aluminum can so many families would sue that they would never allow guns on flights again. Maybe not even air marshalls or pilots. That would take us in the wrong direction.

    I think we need trained solidiers/LEOs whose marksmanship under extreme pressure situations have been tested. I guess that wold be like hire of a security officer. We are basically private citizens. If something happens such as a on duty shooting we are not treated same as LEOs. We must go thru the same process of proving our actions are justified in judicial process just like a regular citizen who is not licensed to work as a security officer. I would not want to take that burden upon myself with all the things that can go wrong on a plane and possibly cause the thing to go down.

    I might be for it if maybe there was some way to arm persons with specialized ammo that will not penetrate the planes walls, but effective enough to take down the terrorist. I'd be more comfortable with our millitary & LE types taking these positions as side jobs. A lot of LEOs do security jobs, so why not have them do it in our skys?
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  9. #23
    Senior Member Array JohnK87's Avatar
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    We have national concealed carry for active and retired law enforcement. I would be fine if they were allowed to carry on planes too. You might have to figure out what ammo to use and allow them to change theirs out for the flight, maybe have a short training course, and make sure they know about any other armed officers/marshals on board the flight. It would be doable.

    I also would include Special Forces operators (active and retired) who pass a training course and have the appropriate carry permits.

    I would not open it to any concealed carry permit holder.
    ‎An enemy of liberty is no friend of mine. I do not owe respect to anyone who would enslave me by government force, nor is it wise for such a person to expect it. -- Isaiah Amberay

  10. #24
    Member Array chiboxer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I like the way the Israeli's do things. If there is one thing they do right, its security.

    Anyway, for the idea of letting any joker with a weekend ccw class under his belt carry in a aluminum tube thousands of feet in the air with hundreds of lives in his hands... no thanks.
    There is a whole lot more to the job at hand than strapping a gun on. Last I heard, bringing a gun to a bomb fight is kinda like bringing a knife to a gun fight; it's winnable, but you better be damn sure you know what you're doing.

    I know I'll catch a little heat from this, but oh well, Flame on flamers.
    +1

    The level of training required to neutralize a threat, while minimizing civilian casualties is daunting to say the least. While on the SWAT team I participated in a number of tubular assault courses: buses, trains, etc. This is a very difficult operation tactically speaking, there are bound to be innocent civilians that die. On that note, if you were so deputized you better have at least $10 million in liability coverage, because if any of those other passengers dies and their family sues, you are toast. Nope not a good idea.
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  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyboyLDB View Post
    I think you need to be a fully trained LEO - with extra emphasis on aviation protection. So no - bad idea. I would not want just anyone with a permit\license to board a plane with a firearm.
    So you only support the 2nd amendment on the ground?

  12. #26
    Senior Member Array Divebum47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I like the way the Israeli's do things. If there is one thing they do right, its security.

    Anyway, for the idea of letting any joker with a weekend ccw class under his belt carry in a aluminum tube thousands of feet in the air with hundreds of lives in his hands... no thanks.
    There is a whole lot more to the job at hand than strapping a gun on. Last I heard, bringing a gun to a bomb fight is kinda like bringing a knife to a gun fight; it's winnable, but you better be damn sure you know what you're doing.

    I know I'll catch a little heat from this, but oh well, Flame on flamers.
    I was trying to think of a way to put it diplomatically. I would not want my life to be in the hands of someone with a CCW and no training, in an aluminum tube, 35,000 feet in the air.
    "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

  13. #27
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I like the way the Israeli's do things. If there is one thing they do right, its security.

    Anyway, for the idea of letting any joker with a weekend ccw class under his belt carry in a aluminum tube thousands of feet in the air with hundreds of lives in his hands... no thanks.
    There is a whole lot more to the job at hand than strapping a gun on. Last I heard, bringing a gun to a bomb fight is kinda like bringing a knife to a gun fight; it's winnable, but you better be damn sure you know what you're doing.

    I know I'll catch a little heat from this, but oh well, Flame on flamers.
    Quote Originally Posted by tapout1003 View Post
    No i'm sorry I don't believe it's a good idea. The level of training required in most states is not enough to do the job. I personally am scared by some of the people I meet who pass the class.

    I myself have made the mistake thinking that most CCW holders are as responsible as those here on the forum. The sad fact is that most aren't.
    Quote Originally Posted by blankman View Post
    So you only support the 2nd amendment on the ground?
    Quote Originally Posted by Divebum47 View Post
    I was trying to think of a way to put it diplomatically. I would not want my life to be in the hands of someone with a CCW and no training, in an aluminum tube, 35,000 feet in the air.
    agreed...

    i think all you would have to do is log onto a carry forum...like this one...and read some of the trigger happy posts to realize that in a crowded situation on a plane you wouldnt want these guys protecting you in the air...

    you wanna be a protector in the skies when you fly take some hand to hand combat classes and be prepared when you see something go down...a gun wouldnt have done anybody any good when the recent bombing plot was foiled...the civilian did the responsible thing...he recognized the threat and eliminated it....

    few too many guys with guns think theyre cops...it aint so and its far from reality...

  14. #28
    Distinguished Member Array Bunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HITCH KING View Post
    I would sign up in a heartbeat. Just because somebody has renewed their ccw permit for the last 50 years does not reflect when the last time they fired the gun.

    I would take the FAMS class if possible just for the close combat training.

    Or just pass out bats to random people.
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  15. #29
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    I don't think it would work either.
    Several points;
    1. some of the people that hold CPL's might only fly once a year or less. Why would they bother to get any extra training, and I think the idea of giving them the "Responability" for security on a flight without EXTENSIVE training is just plane (pun intended) crazy.
    Yet there are many here that feel that there should be no training or test required to get your CPL. Do you want untrained people "In charge" if something bad goes down.

    2. How would the schedules and such be determined, who would know ahead of time if a flight had one, or ten "Volunteer" Air Marshels? How would they be cooridinated? What happens if something happens in first class, a volunteer draws his gun to cover the suspect, and gets shot by another volunteer rushing in from coach, mistakes the first for the BG?

    3. What if a volunteer suddenly "loses it" and decides he wants to end it all. He might as well take a plane full of people with him. Granted this is a possibilty with a Federal Air Marshal or police officer also. These people at least are hopefully being watched by each other on the job. If someone is having a bad time, or acting strange, hopefully the co-workers notice it and take measures to solve the problem. If a civilian is having a tough time and his boss decides to give him some time off to relax, he might even put him on a plane for a little vacation, but no one at the airline is going to know the guys on the edge.

    4. As far as the special ammo required on a plane, this has been proven to be a myth. You can shoot a hole in the skin of the plane, or even through a window and it will not cause the plane to split open like a dropped watermelon.

    Annotated Mythbusters: Episode 10: Explosive Decompression, Frog Giggin', Rear Axle

  16. #30
    Senior Member Array TheGreatGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firefighter4884 View Post
    Jerry,

    Any particular reason it's not "a good idea" in your view? That's the same attitude that the anti's have about carry in all circumstances.
    Jim,
    Just because someone disagrees with your viewpoint on person's carrying onboard aircraft, you put them in the same category as an anti-gun activist?


    Quote Originally Posted by 9mm10mmamen View Post
    It would be relatively simple to set up computer verification of a CC holder's permit at the check-in gate and would free up the trained air marshals to deal with international flights. Perhaps a database of qualified IDPA and IPSC shooters could be established to make certain the CC holder is proficient and rated at least Expert or Master with his weapon.
    ...
    Sooooo....the idea is that we provide the federal government with a database that contains the information of everyone in the United States with a concealed carry permit? And, beyond that, we further provide the government with specific information as to who the most proficient and well-trained shooters are? No, no potential problems there. No possible way that would ever come back and bite us in the butt. And of all the government agencies to give this information to...the TSA?!?!?

    The fact is, a firearm is the absolute last resort for a FAM to use in flight. While it has been proven that there is very little danger of any sort of explosive decompression due to a single bullet hole, consider the other aspects of firing a handgun in an in-flight aircraft.

    You are in a very small, confined space where innocent people are literally stacked, row after row after row. What would be behind the target you are shooting at? Are you confident enough in your skills that you are positive you will hit your target and only your target? Are you certain that your rounds will not over-penetrate? What happens to any round you fire that misses or completely penetrates your target? Does it hit essential aircraft wiring? Does it hit the 4-year-old little girl seated in 9D? How about this? In the middle of the flight, Achmed the Terrorist pops up in his sit and screams, "We are taking over this aircraft! We seize it in the name of Allah!!!!". Suddenly, 5, 6, or 7 other individuals all pop up holding guns. OK, Mr. "Volunteer Air Marshal"...who are you going to engage? Quick now! No time to think! Who do you shoot? Look at each individual holding a gun. Is he/she a FAM? Is he/she another terrorist (remember...Achmed said "we")? Is he/she another Volunteer FAM? And what about you? When you stand up with your Glock, what keeps the FAM from shooting you? What keeps another "Volunteer Air Marshal" from shooting you? There are tactical and situational awareness aspects of engaging in a gunfight in an aircraft that do not exist in any other situation. At the end of the day, we are not talking about carrying a firearm in Wal-Mart or into Chili's or into church. When the shooting starts in a Boeing 737, there is no place to hide, duck, or seek cover. There are no exit doors to run out of (well...technically there are, but at 30,000 feet, not a tremendously sound decision).

    So far, in two cases, passenger intervention without firearms has worked very well (Shoe Bomber and Christmas Day Bomber). In almost any combative situation taking place in a confined space such as an aircraft, a general good ol' American butt-kicking is about the most effective response anyone can provide, including armed LEO's.

    Gonzo
    "Skin that smokewagon!".

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