CC permit holders as air marshals

This is a discussion on CC permit holders as air marshals within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by FlyboyLDB I think you need to be a fully trained LEO - with extra emphasis on aviation protection. So no - bad ...

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Thread: CC permit holders as air marshals

  1. #31
    Member Array MtflyerHK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyboyLDB View Post
    I think you need to be a fully trained LEO - with extra emphasis on aviation protection. So no - bad idea. I would not want just anyone with a permit\license to board a plane with a firearm.
    agreed. Although I won't say much for security reasons - airline and cargo pilots have a federal program they can sign up for that will provide excellent training and thus allow themselves to be armed in the flight deck. (federal flight deck officer, or FFDO) The air marshal program has also ramped up in many areas over the years. Both pilots and air marshals receive excellent training which I belive is as good of any deterrent against anything preventable.

    I do not think allowing masses of armed citizens would do any good regardless of their good intentions - it would only create histeria from the sheeple if/when they found someone had a gun that didn't conceal it well enough. Let alone the security screening necessary to decide who should be able to carry and who should not, which I think needs to go FAR beond a criminal record check. Another issue is the liability involved should someone lose control of their weapon. Personal protection is less of an issue too since there are LEO's everywhere in a terminal or airplane etc. AND plenty of people willing to lend a helping hand. Thugs are not a issue behind security and with terrorists or fanatics, lunatics etc. its simply a whole different ballgame. Just check your weapon and pick it up on the other side. My current cargo gig is on the GA side of the airport and does not fall under this as I do not have the SAME security measures as the airline terminal (to say no security is totally false, and only fodder for the next TV or news article special run by the misinformation sheeple histeria media machine)- but as I transition to other operations (bigger opreations, passenger airlines etc) in the future I fully plan to do what I can to become part of the FFDO program.

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  3. #32
    Senior Member Array TheGreatGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blankman View Post
    So you only support the 2nd amendment on the ground?
    I support the Constitution's guarantee of my right to bear arms. I also support the same Constitution's guarantee of property rights. A commercial airliner is private property. They are permitted to place restrictions on what you bring in to them. The Constitution does not say, "Blankman as the right to get on a commercial aircraft to travel from State A to State B.". If it does, it must be in the same section that guarantee's every citizen the right to healthcare, and I'm missing them both. If you want to travel and don't want to be subject the restrictions placed on airline travel...drive. I make that choice on a regular basis. I believe I have the "right" to leg room. I believe I have the "right" to not breath in other people's nasty exhalad air. I believe I have the "right" to move my arms and shoulders more than 2" in either direction. In order to exercise those "rights", I often choose to travel via car as opposed to commercial airliner, even though it takes me longer.

    The key here, in my opinion, is the word "commercial" in "commercial airliner". You pay to use their aircraft and services, you agree to abide by their rules.

    Just my opinion,
    Gonzo
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  4. #33
    Senior Member Array TheGreatGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunny View Post
    What's FAMS?
    Bunny,
    "FAM" is the acronym (as well as the abbreviation) for Federal Air Marshal.
    Gonzo
    "Skin that smokewagon!".

  5. #34
    Senior Member Array youngda9's Avatar
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    puff puff PASS...you forgot to PASS man.

    It'll never happen because of what Janq said "That would require deputizing citizens at the Federal level and offering them civil immunity too."

    CC holders are just ordinary citizens with a basic background check and some training(depends on what state)...in no way do they meet the requirements to be an air Marshall(whether you agree with the requirements or not is another issue).
    Speak softly, and carry a big stick.

  6. #35
    Distinguished Member Array Madcap_Magician's Avatar
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    I honestly don't think this is a very good idea.

    Federal Air Marshals are among the best-trained federal LEOs, especially when it comes to firearms proficiency. I would say 70% of CCW permit holders could not shoot as well as they do (Especially without going through the same training).

    Additionally, it doesn't take much training to have a CCW permit. Because it doesn't take much training to shoot a gun with reasonable accuracy at self-defense range.

    It takes a great deal of training to make a federal law enforcement officer who familiar with federal law, procedures, arrest procedures, close combat techniques specific to airlines, and the hundreds of other things that they are trained to handle. Additionally, FAMS have tons of practice. After all, it's their job.

    99% of CCW holders don't put as many rounds downrange, and virtually none have the same opportunities to train and practice, especially since most of us work full-time.

    I'm all for letting people bring guns on airlines, but deputizing people as federal agents is another thing entirely.

  7. #36
    Senior Member Array youngda9's Avatar
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    ^^ 78.26% of statistics are made up on the spot.
    Speak softly, and carry a big stick.

  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by youngda9 View Post
    ^^ 78.26% of statistics are made up on the spot.
    Then they wouldn't be statistics then would they?
    "Just blame Sixto"

  9. #38
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatGonzo View Post
    Jim,

    So far, in two cases, passenger intervention without firearms has worked very well (Shoe Bomber and Christmas Day Bomber). In almost any combative situation taking place in a confined space such as an aircraft, a general good ol' American butt-kicking is about the most effective response anyone can provide, including armed LEO's.

    Gonzo
    Well the only problem with the butt-kicking of the guy on Christmas day was he was still concious when they took him off the plane. Must have been the Christmas spirit in the passengers.

  10. #39
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    Calling all you sheepdoggies!


  11. #40
    Senior Member Array Tom357's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9mm10mmamen View Post
    Given the most effective response so far to terrorists on planes (think of the flight over Pennsylvania, the shoe bomber and the most recent incident over Detroit), I think there might be a groundswell of support for deputizing certain licensed concealed carry holders to be pemitted to carry concealed handguns on all flights within the continental borders of the U.S...What do you think? So far the unarmed passengers have proven to be the most effective at thwarting their plans ...
    I think there is a groundswell of frustration that the creation of the TSA, increase in the number of Federal Air Marshals, and all the inconveniences imposed indiscriminately on the public have not prevented some high-visibility air incidents that unarmed passengers and flight attendants have had to resolve on their own. I understand your perspective, but there have been many, many incidents over the past 8 years where DHS agencies have successfully thwarted would-be terrorists and attacks that can't be publicized or discussed. Still, DHS and the TSA deserve harsh and justified criticism for a host of reasons.

    I think it would be a disaster to deputize private citizens who have concealed carry permits as part-time air marshals. The current administration is choosing to treat terrorists as common criminals, with the privileges and legal rights of citizens. For this and many other reasons, I think anyone acting as security onboard domestic flights needs to be a law enforcement professional, fully-educated in criminal justice, and specifically trained to deal with in-flight emergencies, while adhering to all police procedures to ensure a successful arrest and prosecution.

    Instead of deputizing private citizens, it would be much better if the government did as it promised, and actively pursued increasing the ranks of the FAMS, and cross-training other law-enforcement professionals to act as Air Marshals.
    - Tom
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  12. #41
    Senior Member Array Divebum47's Avatar
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    MadMac, you are truly an evil person!!
    "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

  13. #42
    Member Array aric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9mm10mmamen View Post
    Given the most effective response so far to terrorists on planes (think of the flight over Pennsylvania, the shoe bomber and the most recent incident over Detroit), I think there might be a groundswell of support for deputizing certain licensed concealed carry holders to be pemitted to carry concealed handguns on all flights within the continental borders of the U.S.

    It would be relatively simple to set up computer verification of a CC holder's permit at the check-in gate and would free up the trained air marshals to deal with international flights. Perhaps a database of qualified IDPA and IPSC shooters could be established to make certain the CC holder is proficient and rated at least Expert or Master with his weapon.

    What a deterrent!!! Once the terrorists realized they were potentially surrounded by gun-toting citizens, they might hesitate to plan some of these attacks.

    What do you think? So far the unarmed passengers have proven to be the most effective at thwarting their plans ...
    Exactly how much would I be paid for freeing up these air marshals?
    Carrying while flying would be nice, but exactly what would be the Responsibilities/Liabilities of being the one with the air marshal duties of formally defending the plane/passengers.

    Me and mine with the occasional good deed. I would actually expect employment for armed security duty.

  14. #43
    VIP Member Array Stevew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMac View Post
    Calling all you sheepdoggies!

    Wins my vote for coolest post. I want it for my signature.
    Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around laws. Plato

  15. #44
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divebum47 View Post
    MadMac, you are truly an evil person!!
    "Thank you very much. I'm here all week. Remember to tip the veal, and try your waitress...."

  16. #45
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    With the type of accuracy I've witnessed during testing for a CHL,HELL NO,most of the people have never shot a gun before and barely qualify,I would rather a highly qualified marshall take the shot than some CHL kill six people trying to hit 1 BG
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

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