CC permit holders as air marshals - Page 4

CC permit holders as air marshals

This is a discussion on CC permit holders as air marshals within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I will join on the band wagon with the rest of the no's.. But I would like to add, that their are already a bunch ...

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Thread: CC permit holders as air marshals

  1. #46
    Member Array baloo10's Avatar
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    I will join on the band wagon with the rest of the no's..

    But I would like to add, that their are already a bunch of "deputy FAM's" on flights.. They are other LEO's.. I know that Federal LEO's (after taking a quick class) can carry on flights.. I'm not sure about state or local LEO's.. I know that every flight that I have been on because of work, there has been someone armed on it..

    It does kind of surprise me how many flights there are that already have armed non-FAM LEO's on them..

    The next time you fly, try out my new favorite flying game, "spot the FAM".. I don't know what it is, but recently they have totally failed on the concept of a cover garment..


  2. #47
    VIP Member Array Patti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    With the type of accuracy I've witnessed during testing for a CHL,HELL NO,most of the people have never shot a gun before and barely qualify,I would rather a highly qualified marshall take the shot than some CHL kill six people trying to hit 1 BG
    +1.

    The air marshalls have to go through a very rigorous training and are required to be sharp shooters. They have a high wash out rate.

    People who are not highly trained have no business discharging a firearm on a plane. It's very tight quarters and there's no room for errors.
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  3. #48
    Senior Member Array Grant48's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baloo10 View Post
    I know that Federal LEO's (after taking a quick class) can carry on flights.. I'm not sure about state or local LEO's.. ..
    Generally state/county/municipal LEO's can only carry, after taking a class, within the course of their official duties (prisoner transport, VIP protective detail, etc). When flying off-duty, they usually have to abide by the same rules as any other citizen.

    Whether federal LEO's can fly armed while off-duty depends on their GS career series and agency policy. Of course they can carry while on-duty, relocation/change of station, and such.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant48 View Post
    Honestly, I dont understand why US airlines havent done this already. They own/lease the aircraft, not the government. The airlines have a vested interest in keeping their customers and employees safe, and aircraft intact. Thus, the airlines should have the right to place armed security personnel onboard if they wish, because it is impossible for a FAM to be on every flight.
    Because that would cut into their precious profits and might cause a "liability," further cutting into the $$$.

    Good idea (also for ships) but they'll never do it. They'll continue to rely on the token air marshals (who rarely intervene in these incidents) or brave passengers (who do intervene!).
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  5. #50
    Member Array Soular's Avatar
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    No, not just any Permit holder.

    I would buy into the idea that any active duty military or LEO who has taken/passed a course approved by the air marshals could carry though.
    Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn. -C. S. Lewis

  6. #51
    Senior Member Array TheGreatGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    They'll continue to rely on the token air marshals (who rarely intervene in these incidents)
    Really? Could you please provide your statistics or source of information for that?
    "Skin that smokewagon!".

  7. #52
    Member Array HardCorps79's Avatar
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    Go ahead and call Gecko45 on me, but I share an office with a Marine who was a FAM. He already went home, but I'll try and talk to him this weekend and get his take. He's very pro-CCW, but I'm certain he's not in favor of it. I'll report back.
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  8. #53
    Member Array Astute's Avatar
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    Never will happen. The Union representing the air marshalls would never allow it to happen. They couldn't tolerate people doing what they do more efficiently and not paying extors..I mean dues.

  9. #54
    VIP Member Array JerryM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firefighter4884 View Post
    Jerry,

    Any particular reason it's not "a good idea" in your view? That's the same attitude that the anti's have about carry in all circumstances.

    While I agree that it won't happen any time soon, that's for political reasons, not because of any safety issues.

    I'll pose the same question to flyboy....

    --Jim
    Hi Jim,

    I sometimes help a friend who is a firearms instructor, and teaches CHL classes. I an a guest instructor, and not qualified to teach without him. I have helped for about 5 years.

    There are very few people who come through the class that shoot well enough to carry and use a gun in a crowd, especially an airplane.
    In NM we shoot 25 rounds.Fifteen rounds at 3, and 10 at 7 yards. One must score 72% on a 12X18inch target.

    I remember that AZ is slightly more difficult and also TX, but some states do not require live fire, at least if you can provide certain info such as a DD 214

    Overall I do not trust the CHL holders to shoot well enough in a crowd, and again especially in an airplane.

    I also doubt that many CHL holders possess the necessary ability to correctly assess the situation and make the correct decision.

    As it turns out, one of my best friend's son was a FAM for several years. He recently resigned due to the fact that he was never home and decided he could not be the husband and father he needed to be.

    But that aside he underwent some rigorous training and had to hone his shooting skills. If I recall correctly he had to draw from cover and put 2 shots in a small circle at 7 yds in less than 1.5 seconds.
    He did tell me that in time they go through the federal LEO course now because so few could meet the shooting requirements.

    I will take some flak for this, but it is my observation, even including some of these forums, that there are those who get the license but do not really possess the maturity to do something such as act as a FAM. Just because one has a CHL does not mean that he has the mature judgment to do anything requiring a gun.

    So, I do not want to be flying with someone who can hit a 12 X 18 target, but not much better. Many could not meet the physical requirements either. All tasks do not require shooting.
    It is also my opinion that many have an inflated opinion of their abilities under a stressful condition such as would be encountered.

    Hope this answers the question as to why I hold my view.

    Regards,
    Jerry

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant48 View Post
    I think that we should look closely at how the Israelis (El Al) handle in-flight security. Instead of deferring responsibility to the government (such as our Federal Air Marshals), the airline provides its own in-house private security officers for every flight. They are HEAVILY armed, and supposedly most are former Mossad or Israeli Special Forces.
    Speaking of El Al; have you every taken a flight with them? They have one of the better (OK, BEST) pre-flight passenger screening of ANY airline. It is my understanding from a family member who flew El Al back in the day (post hijackings and pre 9-11) that their screen process made the US and other airlines look unexistant. Question like "Where have you been? Where are you going? Why El Al?" They checked your teeth if need be. Of course this style security take about twice as long as ours and would be a privacy issues for most of our liberal herd but I would bet that if the security for the US airport got as tight as El Al's there would not be bombers getting on the airplanes!! Then again if all the groups that deal with terrorism would speak to one another life would be be better as well!!

  11. #56
    Senior Member Array C Bennett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9mm10mmamen View Post
    Given the most effective response so far to terrorists on planes (think of the flight over Pennsylvania, the shoe bomber and the most recent incident over Detroit), I think there might be a groundswell of support for deputizing certain licensed concealed carry holders to be pemitted to carry concealed handguns on all flights within the continental borders of the U.S.

    It would be relatively simple to set up computer verification of a CC holder's permit at the check-in gate and would free up the trained air marshals to deal with international flights. Perhaps a database of qualified IDPA and IPSC shooters could be established to make certain the CC holder is proficient and rated at least Expert or Master with his weapon.

    What a deterrent!!! Once the terrorists realized they were potentially surrounded by gun-toting citizens, they might hesitate to plan some of these attacks.

    What do you think? So far the unarmed passengers have proven to be the most effective at thwarting their plans ...
    will never happen because of LIABILITY issues and association with the Government agency for ANYTHING you do wrong or may get caught up in. It would not say Joe public got pulled over for wreckless driving or Speeding or trespassing, or yelling at his neighbor..it would say...US AIR MARSHALL pulled over accused of etc,etc,etc...so it wont happen on people they dont have as "career" employees.

    Just not enough training and too much risk involved.

  12. #57
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TerriLi View Post
    Im reminded of Star Ship Troopers, "The enemy can not push a button if you immobilize his hand!"-Sgt Zimmerman after throwing a knife into a trainees hand.
    Good movie, the book is better.

    Agreed, never going to happen.

    On a positive note, enough sheep are getting it into their heads that at least on a plane they need to act and will act if something happens. Too bad they can not apply that logic every waking moment of their life.
    Sticks

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  13. #58
    Distinguished Member Array Agave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant48 View Post
    Generally state/county/municipal LEO's can only carry, after taking a class, within the course of their official duties (prisoner transport, VIP protective detail, etc). When flying off-duty, they usually have to abide by the same rules as any other citizen.

    Whether federal LEO's can fly armed while off-duty depends on their GS career series and agency policy. Of course they can carry while on-duty, relocation/change of station, and such.
    I'm not aware of an agency policy that prevents FLEOs from carrying on commercial aircraft while off duty. I didn't work for all the agencies and never read their policies, but I do know that the Chief of the Border Patrol David Aguilar highly encourages Patrol Agents to carry when they fly.

    And really, there is no reason not to. It's so convenient.
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  14. #59
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    Wow! Talk about stirring up a hornet's nest. That was great! Thanks for all the opinions. I won't even begin to respond individually to them, but I appreciate the thought and the apparent experience behind the answers.

    So, if most CC permit holders aren't to be trusted to shoot accurately, then can we trust them (each other) in ANY crowded situation in public or is the motivation for obtaining a permit strictly for home defense? Or when you find yourself in a dark alley with your beautiful wife and nubile young daughter? (Bad situational awareness.)

    My original postulation actually goes back to a statement Archie Bunker made in the TV series 'All In The Family' when he casually waved his cigar around and declared the way to end airline hijackings (and this was in the 70s, remember) was to issue a gun to every passenger as they got on the plane. It was a great gag and drew a lot of laughs, but the same principle applies: if you don't know a person is armed, aren't you less likely to mug/attack/rape them? If you knew there were armed people who might prevent you from succeeding at a suicide bombing, wouldn't you be less likely to attempt it.
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  15. #60
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    I can't remember what the shooting Qualification was/Is for FAM's,but IIRC they had to qualify monthly and if they didn't pass the shooting test they didn't fly until they did.And the shooting test is extremely hard to pass,I couldn't do it on my best day
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