CC permit holders as air marshals

This is a discussion on CC permit holders as air marshals within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; It is a bit naive of people to think that the threat of deadly force will act as a deterrent to someone expecting to die ...

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Thread: CC permit holders as air marshals

  1. #61
    Member Array BurgDog's Avatar
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    It is a bit naive of people to think that the threat of deadly force will act as a deterrent to someone expecting to die anyway. Gee I guess I won't release this unpinned grenade I am holding in my hand because you are threatening to shoot me.

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  3. #62
    Senior Member Array TheGreatGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9mm10mmamen View Post
    So, if most CC permit holders aren't to be trusted to shoot accurately, then can we trust them (each other) in ANY crowded situation in public or is the motivation for obtaining a permit strictly for home defense?
    I understand what you are saying, but again, I would simply say that shooting inside of a commercial aircraft is simply different than any other tactical situation. If your beautiful wife and nubile young daughter were flying in a Northwest Flight without you, would you be comfortable with the idea of someone with no training (as is possible in many states, including mine) and no experience deciding when and how it was appropriate to start shooting inside the aircraft?

    Quote Originally Posted by 9mm10mmamen View Post
    If you knew there were armed people who might prevent you from succeeding at a suicide bombing, wouldn't you be less likely to attempt it.
    I would have to say this...think about what you just wrote. You want to commit suicide...but you don't want to be killed in the process?

    I think your question is reasonable and your concerns founded, but I'm sticking with my original answer. Simply not a good idea.
    Respectfully,
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  4. #63
    Member Array wormtown's Avatar
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    Excellent question and most interesting.

    I do think (as has been hinted at by others) that this underscores the flaw in thinking that firearms are the be-all and end-all of defense. In a tight highly crowded situation such as an airplane, with limited backstop and mulitple non-threats, I would be much more comfortable with short range weapons, be that spray, electricity, knife, stick, or hand-to-hand.

    And in fact, there are many innocuous devices that can double as effective weapons that one can permissibly carry on commercial airlines.

    Plus, I've seen IDPA experts take out non-threats on a stage. IDPA is fun, but it's not training.
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  5. #64
    Member Array cwaturner's Avatar
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    Never happen, the current AMs have to requalify every 6 months as is stands. And currently are all ex LEOs I believe. But I do agree that the airlines should start hiring their own UCs for domestic flights.

  6. #65
    Distinguished Member Array Agave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwaturner View Post
    Never happen, the current AMs have to requalify every 6 months as is stands. And currently are all ex LEOs I believe. But I do agree that the airlines should start hiring their own UCs for domestic flights.
    I'm pretty sure they qualify quarterly or more frequently like the rest of DHS. And FAMs are LEOs, not ex LEOs; and no, being an LEO is not a prerequisite.
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  7. #66
    Member Array alienbogey's Avatar
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    <<If you knew there were armed people who might prevent you from succeeding at a suicide bombing, wouldn't you be less likely to attempt it.>>

    Yes, because the terrorist wants to succeed in his mission. Referring to an earlier post, once he's pulled the pin on the grenade a threat to shoot him won't mean much to him, but he doesn't want to pull the pin on the grenade in the first place until it accomplishes his mission.

    The BG's (hopefully) don't know which flights have armed personnel (FAM's, FFDO's, LEO's) on them and which don't, which is a deterrent.

    Besides all the reasons against listed so far (training, discipline, accuracy, blue-on-blue, etc), here are a few more:

    > FAMS, LEO's, FFDO's all go through psychological screening to try and eliminate (as far as is possible) nut cases. Permit holders are not (to my knowledge).

    > Besides non-combatant passengers catching stray rounds in a cabin gunfight, what if the pilots do? It's going to suck if the BG's are subdued and there are two dead pilots behind that reinforced door. A big part of training to fly armed is shoot/no shoot decisions that are toward the cockpit, the discipline to properly make those decisions, and the training/talent to accurately make the shots if necessary. Do we want to trust those decisions and those potential shots to any untrained individual whose only qualification for obtaining the carry permit is good citizenship? (Note: Before I get flamed, I absolutely support right-to-carry for good citizens)

    > Achmed claims to be wearing explosive underwear and shirt - can the untrained permit holder now restrain him/herself to head shots only - and make the shot(s)?

    I'm trained to fly armed on commercial aircraft and all I can add is that there are many, many more reasons and scenarios that make this a bad idea.
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  8. #67
    Member Array enk5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigStick View Post
    As far as genral CWP being a license to carry on a plane, I don't think that is a good idea. Your suggestion to have registered Masters or Experts be a requirement is getting closer to what would seem logical. How about one step further, if they created a class/certification program with deputy air marshal (specifically for purpose of security on a plane with no other duties or responsibilites). I think there are plenty of us in the CC community who would be willing to go through the hastle and jump through the hoops to be able to protect ourselves on airplanes.

    As good as it sounds though, I still can't see it ever happening. And with the way our government is trying to grab as much power as possible in any area, I don't think we should expect the privatization of air security anytime soon either.

    Being new to the carry community I am not familiar with master or expert registration. How does someone achieve those distinctions?

    As far as the CC permit holders allowed on planes, I agree with many here. I would be afraid to allow just anyone with a permit to carry on a plane. I think that there are people who are extremely paranoid when flying that would react to small situations to hastily. But, I would not be objected to people carrying if they went through classes and were specifically certified to carry on a plane. Unfortunately, the antis will not see this as sufficient.

  9. #68
    Ex Member Array JOHNSMITH's Avatar
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    Marshalls are law enforcement. A CC permit holder is not - to suggest otherwise would be to feed the false perception that people think CCers are a bunch of vigilantes.

    And in the latest Detroit incident, a firearm would not have helped. You can't do that against a gun. The only instances where it *may* help is a hijacking, and with these al-qaeda guys, you know they're going to plan things down to the detail, so even then, it's not as easy as having a few CCers on the plane.

  10. #69
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    First, It'll never happen...
    Second, It'll never happen...
    Third, It'll never happen...

    And the list goes on...
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  11. #70
    Distinguished Member Array JerryM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurgDog View Post
    It is a bit naive of people to think that the threat of deadly force will act as a deterrent to someone expecting to die anyway. Gee I guess I won't release this unpinned grenade I am holding in my hand because you are threatening to shoot me.
    Absolutely. Being surrounded by folks carrying guns is no deterrent when you intend to die anyway.

    9mm10mmamen,

    [“So, if most CC permit holders aren't to be trusted to shoot accurately, then can we trust them (each other) in ANY crowded situation in public..”]

    It depends upon how crowded the place is. I do not trust the average CHL holder to shoot in a movie theater, or the auditorium of a church for starters.
    But note that we do not trust one another to carry loaded at a gun show. Most seem to agree with that prohibition.

    I also think that the best defense, other than FAM, is that passengers swarm the guy. If we get killed, then it is better to be fighting than just blown up.

    It is just a very bad idea to even consider CHL holders to be able to handle a terrorist situation including have sufficient markmanship abilities to make the shots that would probably be necessary.

    Like some others I also think there are too many immature CHL holders who see themselves as heroes who saved the lives of over 100 people and shot the terrorist.

    Regards,
    Jerry

  12. #71
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    On the other hand....


    How many of the people that fought against the terrorists with razor knives on the ill fated flight over Pennsylvania wished that they had a gun?

    If there were two or three people on that flight with a gun, would it have crashed into the ground? Would they have survived? What if you were in their shoes, how would you feel? Would you rather have some with a fighting chance if your daughter were on that jet?

    ANY chance of survival is better than NO chance.

    To disallow that chance because of training or the argued lack of it is barbarian.
    As of now, we are guaranteed to lose because we have made aircraft nothing more than a target rich environment.

    For you guys that wont have permitted gun holders on flights because it is dangerous, thank you for arguing for the anti-gunners side, I am sure they appreciate it because they used the same arguments to prevent the states from enacting pro-gun legislation for years and years.

    Times are changing. The world is becoming more brutal by the day.

    One can either understand that and adapt, or choose to remain defenseless and make it easier for those that would kill us.

    Your choice.
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  13. #72
    Senior Member Array TheGreatGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    As of now, we are guaranteed to lose because we have made aircraft nothing more than a target rich environment.
    I'm sorry, but I believe that statement is patently false. We did not "lose" with the Shoe Bomber. We did not "lose" with the Christmas Day bomber. In both cases, heroic passengers took action and stopped the threat.


    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    One can either understand that and adapt, or choose to remain defenseless and make it easier for those that would kill us.

    Your choice.
    Respectfully...my other choice is to completely disagree with your premise. I have always respected your arguments and viewpoints and I think they are generally well thought out. In fact, to date, I can't think of a single time I have found myself in disagreement with your viewpoint. But I think your description of my viewpoint as "barbaric" and arguing the "anti-gunners side" is personally insulting.

    I could easily counter by saying, "You can adapt and acknowledge that you have other means of self-defense other than firearms or you can choose to remain defenseless and make it easier for those who would kill you. Your choice.".

    Respectfully (and I mean that with absolute sincerity)
    Gonzo
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  14. #73
    Senior Member Array digitalexplr's Avatar
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    Current or prior law enforcement, current ccw in case of prior LEO, pass a certification course.

    Just because you a good at shooting at inanimate targets does not mean you have the mindset to shoot at a real person.

    But it isn't going to happen.
    NRA Life Member

  15. #74
    Member Array JohnWFD's Avatar
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    That idea is up there with nationalized pistol permits..... great concept but it will never happen
    "A free people ought to be armed." - George Washington

  16. #75
    Member Array junglebob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant48 View Post
    Generally state/county/municipal LEO's can only carry, after taking a class, within the course of their official duties (prisoner transport, VIP protective detail, etc). When flying off-duty, they usually have to abide by the same rules as any other citizen.

    Whether federal LEO's can fly armed while off-duty depends on their GS career series and agency policy. Of course they can carry while on-duty, relocation/change of station, and such.
    A friend who is a conservation officer and mentioned flying armed, he said you are told who the others are on the flight who are armed. This is helpful when a terrorist says "we are taking over this plane"!

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