May 9th, 2006 10:02 AM
I got my first knife demo
In the handgun class this past weekend I got my first demonstration of why the old adage about bringing a knife to a gun fight might not be true in all instances. The instructor took a rubber knife and gave a student a toy gun, which the student holstered. They stood a bit over 21 feet apart and the instructor told the student to draw before he got to him with the knife. Even with the knowledge that the instructor was going to come at him it took him three tries to get the gun out before the instructor got to him, and even then he would have more than likely missed his shot and got cut or stabbed.
The other demo the instructor did was to take a large rump roast and wrap it in a t-shirt. The whole bundle was about 1 foot long and anywhere from 4-6 inches thick. After taping this bundle to a stick for safety he then took a standard folding knife with about a 3 inch blade and slashed the meat with it. The knife nearly severed a large section of meat off. The cut was towards the end of the bundle, so probably 4-5 inches thick where the knife cut it. So, if the bundle represented your bicep then it would have been severed clean. He then took another folding knife with a 1 inch blade and did the same thing. This tiny one inch blade cut a 4 inch long gash that was at least 1 inch deep.
With either of these two blades a cut to the right part of me and I am done. This really brought home the point Gary Brommeland was making, in a different thread, about not letting someone close to within 20 feet of you.
If you have already drawn your weapon you have the advantage, if not you are done.
Last edited by Rocnerd; May 10th, 2006 at 01:23 PM.
May 9th, 2006 12:31 PM
I've heard and read about that, but that sounds like a pretty good demonstration. Really brings the point home.
"fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." [Warren v. District of Columbia,(D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981)]
If I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand
May 9th, 2006 01:18 PM
And the edge too!
Originally Posted by 4my son
May 9th, 2006 03:14 PM
It's called the Tuller Drill named for Dennis Tuller. I'm sure most members of this forum already know this. It's an eye opener, that is for sure. Even 21' is too close.
DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.
Certified Instructor for Minnesota Carry Permit
NRA Pistol and Personal Protection Insrtuctor
Utah Permit Certified Instructor
May 9th, 2006 03:28 PM
Yes, and when you take into consideration the Tueller drills are usually run with a holstered gun with no garments covering it, imagine what the scenario would be like under normal concealed carry conditions where you're having to pull open a coat or dig under a shirt to get to your gun.
This is where some hand-to-hand and disarm skills would be handy - something to block and stop the blade arm so you actually have time to draw.
"Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa
May 9th, 2006 04:00 PM
Did you happen to time it?
1.5-2.0 seconds is enough time for an attacker to travel 21 feet and open one up with his knife........and barely enough time for someone to recognize, draw from a holstered position, aim and fire upon a knife wielding threat.
May 9th, 2006 04:20 PM
May 9th, 2006 05:14 PM
Another thing that many don't realise is that if the BG is a well trained knife fighter you are not going to even see a blade untill he can reach out and cut. I trained in this stuff and alot of time is spent on learning to conceal a weapon that is drawn and ready to use until it's too late for the opponent.
The good news is that the really well trained knife fighters I've known are good guys.
It's more the wackos that worry me.....
May 9th, 2006 07:12 PM
I'll be honest - blades scare the crap outa me - in the wrong hands of course.
For sure the old adage is always true - distance is your friend.
Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.
"To own a gun and assume that you are armed
is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."
- a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.
May 9th, 2006 09:22 PM
Standing still to draw from the holster against someone moving on you with an edged weapon in nigh suicidal. The best bet is to move aggressively at a 45 degree angle to his line of attack, preferably away from his strong side, while you're drawing. Bet the instructor didn't have his student try that, 'cause the knife guy loses every time. All too often we train as if our feet are rooted to the ground, when in reality we should be moving laterally, looking for cover and generally playing havoc with our opponent's focus while drawing a weapon. Evade, use your footwork, use angling and distancing. You can hit him from far outside contact distance, so you should have every advantage. Here's the trick: you'll only do this under pressure if you train this way a LOT...
The best way to do it is find yourself a fairly clear open space, say your garage or back yard, and have a buddy come at you with a fake knife. Within a very short time, you'll begin to see why a knife isn't preferred over a firearm for defensive purposes. The reason a knife scares people is because they aren't used to seeing one used in an attack. Practice this movement pattern with dry fire, and if you have a range that will allow it, against a target (safely) with live fire. Go slowly at first, but, doggone it, get out of the habit of just standing there while you draw. YMMV.
May 9th, 2006 09:42 PM
Excellent advice!! Thanks for the reminder. Since I'm still new to this, I have to constantly remind myself when I mentally run through scenarios to MOVE MOVE MOVE and TAKE COVER -- regardless of what the offensive weapon is.
Originally Posted by sacp81170a
Requiring a license makes it illegal to do something that was lawful before the license was required.
May 9th, 2006 09:55 PM
Good advice from all of you. For some of us who haven't had the opportunity to take a good defensive course, this kind of talk can save a life...maybe mine!
God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the weaponry to make the difference.
May 9th, 2006 10:22 PM
Our group of instructors have an event once a year were students come and play with us in the mountains of Oregon (right outside of Sisters OR) were one event is doing the Tuller drill were the person stands in a square marked on the ground and is told to wait, react as they deem fit. At this point from a pulley system between two trees a target is hung, behind the person is a man who runs the opposite direction which pulls the target towards the player, yep you guess it, 21 feet and the actual speed of a normal healthy mammal. 9 times out of 10 the player attempts to draw and engage the moving target and this is their only consideration meaning, they do not attempt to move laterally, backwards or for that matter in any direction. Ask them why afterwards, their body had gone to “flight flight/freeze”, they do not use this term but we know that is what they meant. The surprising part is one quarter of the players have been to some high level training at nationally known schools. Does this make a difference? May be, may be not. As the old adage goes something to the tune of, it’s only theory until you have been taught and then practiced it. Every single LEO moved when the target began moving, I expected this but would not drop my jaw if they didn’t.
In regards to cutting meat, Bram Frank inventor of the Spyderco Gunting cuts a hunk of beef while inside pant legs without any intent then goes on to hack at chicken legs making the point, “this could be your fingers.” Seeing this live is a wake up call to those who don’t realize how little it takes to “defang you.” I have trained with Bram and learned a great deal from him.
When thinking distance and reaction time, both Bram Frank and Ernest Emerson both teach (more so with Mr. Emerson) to close the distance and negate the “sweet zone” of the weapon directed at you. I agree with this but also have to disagree. It all comes down to a) your mental state b) training c) the environment d) what you perceive as your opponents abilities and mind set. What is unique about combat/attack is, they are immutable so as any good instructor will tell you, do not depend on they attacker doing step 3 and does step 6...what you going to do?
I surely do not have all the answers but truly believe that if you have not done the Tuller drill you need too and learn from it. Learn about the OODA loop and the color codes.
Expect to get cut. Expect it to feel unlike a cut but typically a punch. There was a study done and published in ASLET magazine (Novemeber/December 2002) were 85 LEO were told they would be attacked with a marking knife. Not having the magazine in front of me, my guess is that less then 5 officers may be 3 actually did more then back up away from the threat and either engaged or moved laterally. These are men and woman who are trained were the average citizen is not for the most part.
(okay I drank way to much coffee tonight I will stop now)
ACCJT Certified LEO DT Instructor
May 9th, 2006 11:06 PM
move back, move sideways...but move
May 9th, 2006 11:34 PM
If you are under attack, by knife, bat, bar, whatever the BG happens to have in his hand at the time, another very useful counter is to move into the attack. Go on the offensive. The last thing the BG expects is a decisive attack. Action beats reaction so put the advantage back in your corner and make the BG react to you. If you train at it, your "counter" attack can be very effective and give you the time you need to draw your handgun if needed.
"You've never lived until you've almost died. For those who fight for it, life has a flavor the protected will never know" - T.R.
<----My LT was unhappy that I did not have my PASS-Tag at that fire. But I found the body so he said he would overlook it. :)
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